Dark Side of the Moon

Type Moon => Fanfiction => Lantz's fics => Topic started by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 12:54:42 AM

Title: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 12:54:42 AM
Ok so  Kuro proposed a Q and A thread. I agree with the idea. He's suggested the following rules.

The setup would come with a few rules that everyone, would have to follow.

1. All questions must be prefixed with Q. Answers Must be prefixed with A.
2. All questions directed to Lantz must be queries related to the Mechanics, background, equipment, feats, or abilities of Satoshi or his other characters.
3. Lantz must address all questions, he can however decline to provide an answer.
4. All answers are final, no complaining.
5. If Lantz is open to suggestions about something he will say as much in the relevant answer.
6. Lantz acknowledges that any question he declines to answer is then open to interpretation by others till such a time as he chooses to clarify.
7. I don't know is an acceptable answer.
8. Questions containing direct or indirect insults as interpreted by ME (MR IMPARTIAL) will be excluded from the above.

so follow the rules and ask your questions.

Edit: these rules were pasted from pm, the ME refers to Kuro.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 01:06:05 AM
Q. In the RP sheet you refer to dragon fire as taxing to the body. Apparently to the point where Avalon cannot regenerate his body fast enough to keep up with the stress it causes. Does this have anything to do with prana?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 01:07:45 AM
A: every use of magic has to do with prana, that's the way the nasuverse works.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 01:17:51 AM
Q. In the more specific sense is the strain on his body from use of dragonfire only due to the high prana consumption or is there some other factor? If so What?

To the questioners I would suggest asking specific well defined questions like this.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam on May 16, 2014, 01:20:28 AM
Q: Doggystyle or 69?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 01:22:53 AM
^Read the rules please, we are trying to accomplish something here.

Also that is not a valid Question.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 01:24:13 AM
Q. How did Satoshi become the "heir" of the Einzberns? Acht would sooner embrace the rejects as family then let some outsider learn their ways.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 01:46:30 AM
Q: Why does Satoshi need all his strength?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam on May 16, 2014, 01:49:00 AM
^Read the rules please, we are trying to accomplish something here.

Also that is not a valid Question.
I want to know what he likes.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 16, 2014, 01:51:48 AM
Wow Gray, how subtle.

Q. Are there any situations or enemies that Avalon can't protect from?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 16, 2014, 01:53:16 AM
Q: How does "Sword of Darkness" exactly work against Gilgamesh?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 16, 2014, 01:56:39 AM
In better format:

Q2. Can you give us a visual descripton of Satoshi's reality marble, and how it rectifies his opponent's attempts to violate his rules?
Q3. What limitations are in place to prevent rules limiting his target's existence in Satoshi's RM?
Q4. What are Satoshi's physical weaknesses?
Q5. What weak spots in his experience or knowledge can enemies take advantage of?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 01:58:28 AM
I would suggest putting each question in a separate Q unless one is dependant on the other, the more you ask for in one Q the less likely you are to get an answer.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 02:02:42 AM
Multiple Q's can be put in one post you know...
EG.
Q.Q1
Q.Q2
Q.Q3
ect
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 02:20:36 AM
@Kuro

A: emitting the dragon's flame is unnatural for anything other than a dragon. Satoshi is human physically, as such his body is not made to do it.

@leo

A: He's a virgin

@Umbra

A: Acht is dead.

@Gray

A: Too general

@Qwerty

A: MEoDP, Oberon, Titanna, Vivian, Morrigan, Akashic erasure.

@Salto

A: it's a psychic manifestation of hatred, it bypasses all known defenses and does damage approaching infinity to the target of said malice. To any other target it's an ordinary long sword. Satoshi carries it in order to keep it from being used as he regrets it's existence.

@Qwerty

A: it depends on his age and how large (determined by prana) he can make it in regards to what it looks like.

A: it is an intangible, unavoidable shock

A: his basic nature, a fair fight is what he's all about

A: Too general
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 16, 2014, 02:32:00 AM
Q: How come Acht die? He has sustained himself for centuries but has not show any symptoms of soul rot.

(PS. I doubt Acht would pass his legacy to an outsider even in death. Eizberns are that prideful that merely hiring someone to do job for them is done reluctantly. Kiritsugu was not taught by Einzberns anything.)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 02:34:15 AM
Q. How does the psychic manifestation of the hatred of a single person even get close to infinity damage?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 02:38:07 AM
@Kat

A: Murder

@Umbra

A: not literally infinity, simply an immeasurable amount of damage.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 16, 2014, 02:39:57 AM
Q: By whom?

(PS. Heh, even if murdered and with no heir appointed other Einzberns would not allow leaking thousand years old legacy to strangers)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 02:41:51 AM
If all answers are final can we ask for futher clarification?


Huh, 16 million (plus whatever time dislpacement shennanigans are added) year old virgin. Interesting.

Q: Why do you use Satoshi in your more experimental works regardless of whether it would work for his character or the other characters involved? (the lemons come to mind)

Q: How does a phycic manifestation of Hatred bypass Gil's defenses? He could survive Grail mud that contained all the evil in the world (I believe hatred was counted in those evils) so what's so special about the phsychic hate sword?

Q: How do the powers that Satoshi gain make relevance to the story?

Q: How do you build up dramatic tension if Satoshi is immune to everything except High level fairies and omnipotent levels of retconning via Avalon?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 16, 2014, 02:44:32 AM
Q. He wants a fair fight, but he has avalon on, meaning that if his opponents aren't Oberon, Vivian, etc., then they can't hurt him. How does he ensure a fair fight if Satoshi himself is too strong for his opponent?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 02:56:43 AM
@Kat

A: implied to be Saber although I never do confirm that in the story.

@Gray

A: work specific but the general answer is either cast restriction or characterization fails for the other guys.

A: hatred in the general sense is seen as different from singular focused pure hatred.

A: Too general

A: situationally, as with all heroes.

@qwerty

A: depends on the opponent.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 03:04:07 AM
Q:Why is his RM about "fair fights"when all it should be used for is to prevent people from using X attack, Y defense, Z technique and so on, none of which Satoshi himself has?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 03:10:51 AM
Q. So one guy's hatred is equal to "The Star That Split Heaven And Earth" and an NP from a Bodhisattava who rules over a solar system?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 03:13:45 AM
@Kat

A: implied to be Saber although I never do confirm that in the story.
Okay then. Most honourable knight who was a total chivalry freak in Zero (to the point of retardation) decided to go ahead and assassinate someone. Yeah I can't see that happening and this makes the death and thus the passing on of the legacy rather contrived at best.
@Gray

A: work specific but the general answer is either cast restriction or characterization fails for the other guys.

A: hatred in the general sense is seen as different from singular focused pure hatred.

A: Too general

A: situationally, as with all heroes.
The first:
So you willingly destroy the characterization of canon characters for the sake of having your OC participate in some fun things good to know.
If the cast is restricted that still doesn't answer why it couldn't have been anyone else in that role.
The second:
Hatred in the general sense encompasses every hate ever. Including that singular vendetta. I could get it maybe if you had it take up the RM slot and had it run like La Pucelle (still not reaching infinite damage) but just a byproduct of hatred of one man against one other man when all of humanities evil pales in comparison.

Q: What about the sword makes it unblockable? It's just a high level hate stick.

The third:
Okay then let's get a little more specific why don't we.

Q: Why Does Satoshi need immunity to all elements if he already has Avalon doing immunity to everything for him?

The fourth:
So he's like Superman except the Nasuverse version and instead of kryptonite and magic it's Fairies and retconning that he's weak to.
Q: What made you decide to transfer such a character archetype to the Nasuverse where it has been demonstrably proven to be damn near impossible throughout at least three characters?

@qwerty

A: depends on the opponent.

Q: He is immortal and immune to everything because Avalon (if he has enough power for dragon fire he has enough power for it's super hax defense mode). So how is it fair fight against anyone other than to aformentioned people?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 03:15:01 AM
@brah

A: The sacred court is based on his status as a knight, a knight's honour demands a fair fight.

@Umbra

A: I wouldn't exactly put it like that. It's simply that there's a distinction between general and focused effort.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 03:19:23 AM
Oh yeah, knight's honor. Which includes blowing up an entire garage filled with vintage cars to hit a slime. Also if it was that simple (not even mentioning the fact that Satoshi feels less like a knight than Karna, to whom chivalry is completely unknown) to get an RM, you'd see everyone and their mom having one.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 03:20:29 AM
Q. What does that mean? I asked how it could achieve an immeasurable level of damage which is basically EX. It's why I mentioned Ea and Transmigration Unto One.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 16, 2014, 03:20:41 AM
Guys, Kuro said "no complaining", that means not tearing apart the answers Lantz gives. If you need clarification then sure, but the idea of this thread isn't to start arguing over what he's said.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 03:22:32 AM
@Gray

the word retard is offensive, take note and do not use it again.

A: only to known defense, in other words, nothing Gilgamesh has

A: they are proofs of certain skill masteries

A: That is a loaded question, rephrase it

A: depends on the opponent.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 03:23:08 AM
Im not complaining I'm asking for clarification because lantz is bending suspense of disbelief over a guard rail and nailing it in the ass right now. No lube.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 03:29:50 AM
Gray, you are pushing it pretty hard, watch it with the scathing comments, I do not want to be pushing the report button on day 1.

Brahmastra... If you want clarification phrase your next Q based on what you learned from the previous ones.

That is what I did, it seemed to work rather well.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 03:37:01 AM
@Gray

the word retard is offensive, take note and do not use it again.
I don't see it as bad per se. I just meant that she was so caught up on chivalry the effect it had on her decision making was comparative to mental impairment i.e. retardation.
A: only to known defense, in other words, nothing Gilgamesh has
Gilgamesh has every defense humanity ever had, has or ever will have in his vault because of the retconning nature of GoB. If gil doesn't have it that makes it unblockable by everything. So we return to the question.

Q: Why is it unblockable by everything? There should be concepts that could counter hate easily, like I don't know forgiveness, calm or other things.

Q: Satoshi forged it, Satoshi is human so why doesn't Gil have a better version of the hate stick in his vault?
A: they are proofs of certain skill masteries
Q: What skill masteries would be represented by elemental immunity?
I could understand some control but immunity seems a tad strange.

A: That is a loaded question, rephrase it

How is it loaded?
Q: You plan to make a character that parallels superman despite the fact that the struggle of modern humanity to reach anything near that level (all mages) or even atain a similar role (Kiritsugu, Archer, Shirou or one could argue Saber even) have been fruitless?


A: depends on the opponent.

Let me rephrase then.
Q: Since he is immune to everyone ever except reality warpers and uber fairies due to Avalon. How is any fight against people who aren't that remotely fair?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 03:38:03 AM
Gray, you are pushing it pretty hard, watch it with the scathing comments, I do not want to be pushing the report button on day 1.

Brahmastra... If you want clarification phrase your next Q based on what you learned from the previous ones.

That is what I did, it seemed to work rather well.
I'm not sure where I'm pushing it. Can you clarify? I'm genuinely confused here as I'm pretty bad at telling when I'm pressing people's buttons.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 03:49:17 AM
@Gray

it doesn't matter if you see it as bad, it is offensive to me, stop or leave.

A: everything he has, simple as that.

A: interesting supposition, however Satoshi isn't simply human.

A: mastery of martial arts and elemental disciplines proved through the former.

A: it asks a supposition which forces a specific answer. So rephrase it.

A: depends on the opponent, some opponents aren't physical fighters. Plus tkos and the like.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 03:53:49 AM
The commentary implies bad things that are an insult to Lantz's ability as a writer, plus you aren't supposed to include the commentary in the first place. If you have a constructive suggestion, ask Lantz if he wants to hear it. DO NOT tear every answer he gives you apart and point out every flaw you see in his reasoning.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 03:55:08 AM
Q. What does that mean? I asked how it could achieve an immeasurable level of damage which is basically EX. It's why I mentioned Ea and Transmigration Unto One.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 03:57:45 AM
Could I make a suggestion about Sword of Darkness?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 04:00:03 AM
Sure Kuro, it's never been intrinsically required to be exactly what it is to fit the story.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 04:05:08 AM
@Gray
it doesn't matter if you see it as bad, it is offensive to me, stop or leave.
I still don't get what wrong with using the word if you're using it to describe stupidity, but if it messes with you so much then I'll stop.
A: everything he has, simple as that.
I'm saying that Gilgamesh has one of conceivable everything at least in base concept. So how is that sword able to counter any of a possible infinite list of conceptual and/or physical defenses? Or bypass any counter offensives (excalibur could be deflected with an Ea slash).
Q: Are you saying that Satoshi's one grudge is more powerful than the combined hopes and dreams of humanity (Excalibur) as Gil can tank that along with all of humanities evil?
A: interesting supposition, however Satoshi isn't simply human.
Q:You mean his nature as fae construct? Or is it the fact he's like quarter (or is it threed quarters after the soul nomming of the dragon?) dragon?
A: mastery of martial arts and elemental disciplines proved through the former.
Q: What type of Martial arts has he mastered?
Q: What do you mean by elemental disciplines?
Q: Nasuverse characters are born with elemental affinites that control what they learn so are you saying that Satoshi is an average one  since he can do all of the elements? If so why is he an average one despite their incredible rarity?
A: it asks a supposition which forces a specific answer. So rephrase it.
Is it really a supposition. Shirou's struggle which he inherited from his father has been stated multiple times to be an "impossible dream". Saber has saved people and led them but gave them no real direction like how superman just saves he doesn't do much beyond that and act as symbol. Saber even had overwhelming power and a group of friends with overwhelming power and still couldn't pull off the Supes thing. So what's the problem with the question? I can't honestly see it.
Anybody reading this can you help clarify? Kuro may you?
A: depends on the opponent, some opponents aren't physical fighters. Plus tkos and the like.
"tkos" by that do you mean total knock outs?

I'm saying he's immune to everythign and after few million of years of phsychological attacks you'd gain immunity Q:So how is he vulnerable in any way, as the only solution to defeating him seems to be "don't fight him at all, sneak attack or play mind games"?



Edit: didn't see you're explanation on the behaviour limits, Kuro. I'll stop if this is too much.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 04:25:37 AM
I would make it a conceptual weapon specifically that has the effect of nullifying Gil's prana, this would do little against sword rain or things that trigger without his prana, but it would entirely ignore his armor (made of it) and if he tried to activate an NP other than EA you could cancel it.
Plus with a few million (or whatever it is) years of mystery behind it you won't have to worry about it's concept being overwhelmed by most things. EA of course being the exception. Depiction wise it would be like a black hole that consumes the power of the king when it strikes.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 16, 2014, 04:27:57 AM
Even then Gil would likely have some defense against that.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 04:32:07 AM
True, but he has a defense against everything, including things that cannot be defended against, so that isn't saying much.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 04:35:55 AM
I would make it a conceptual weapon specifically that has the effect of nullifying Gil's prana, this would do little against sword rain or things that trigger without his prana, but it would entirely ignore his armor (made of it) and if he tried to activate an NP other than EA you could cancel it.
Plus with a few million (or whatever it is) years of mystery behind it you won't have to worry about it's concept being overwhelmed by most things. EA of course being the exception. Depiction wise it would be like a black hole that consumes the power of the king when it strikes.

Gil's armor isnt made of raw prana like Saber's. Also expect Gil to just pull out it's superior and smack Satoshi's shit with it.

Here's how Gate of Babylon works, just for the record. Even if it's a retroactive paradox, Gil has an item in his vault, not neccesarily similar, but superior to whatever thing you have. Also GoB is self-fueled when it comes to Prana, Gil just needs to give it a target.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 04:40:02 AM
Is his armor even made of prana? I thought it was an NP(may be fanon)?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 04:40:50 AM
@Grey

A: in context the sword is used on day three to kill Gilgamesh after all of his weapons are exhausted.

A: short hand yes. Gilgamesh doesn't have Excalibur og in his vault after all.

A: everything except Li's and Archer's forms

A: not sure how I'm supposed to answer this

A: no

A: Technical knockout, unkillable means just that, not unbeatable or invulnerable.

@Kuro

Good idea but it has to be a sword reinforcing the weight of a life principle.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 04:48:13 AM
Funny thing is that in this case his original would be younger than Satoshi's descendant so what would happen then?

Plus, is it ever confirmed what Gil's armor is? I wanna see a quote.

Lantz, Ok one thing first,

Q. What is the Weight of a Life Principal? In detail please.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 04:48:26 AM
@Grey


A: short hand yes. Gilgamesh doesn't have Excalibur og in his vault after all.


Gil has something that does exactly what Excalibur does better, he just doesn't have Excalibur itself.

Funny thing is that in this case his original would be younger than Satoshi's descendant so what would happen then?

Plus, is it ever confirmed what Gil's armor is? I wanna see a quote.


Doesnt matter if his is technically younger, it's still better. I suggest you look up Plato's theory of forms. Using that as an example, everyone knows what a perfect circle or a straight line is, but you've never seen a 100% perfect circle or straight line. Gil has the perfect circle and 100% straight line, Satoshi has a near-perfect and 99.9% straight line.

Gil's armor is only mentioned as a Noble Phantasm by Shirou. Just assume it's a nameless, stupidly powerful armor that has magical protections and protection against petrification.

Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 04:51:50 AM
A: in context the sword is used on day three to kill Gilgamesh after all of his weapons are exhausted.
Q. How does he exhaust a limitless vault? Which returns the treasures to him?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 04:53:53 AM
@Kuro

first off to clarify, the sword of darkness is not as old as Satoshi is in total. Secondly, as Satoshi is not human (at the time) the blade is not retained in any form by the king of heroes.

A: the weight of a life is a reference to feeling someone die, to watch the life drain out of them. Ask soldiers, it's a haunting terrible thing. Satoshi needs to absolutely feel the weight of Gilgamesh's life when he kills him. It's one of the few immovable character moments that exist within the story.

@Umbra

A: Canon says that while they will return it's time based, not like archer who can instantly retrieve the item, further some of the weapons were flat out destroyed.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 04:53:59 AM
I was asking whether your sword was stronger than excalibur Lantz. If it is then it means Satoshi's hatred is greater than all of mankinds hopes and dreams. The reason I asked this was because if it is weaker than excalibur (as it logically should be) than Gilgamesh would be able to counter it because Gilgamesh is capable of counter excalibur slashes with Ea without even trying.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 04:57:56 AM
@Kuro

first off to clarify, the sword of darkness is not as old as Satoshi is in total. Secondly, as Satoshi is not human (at the time) the blade is not retained in any form by the king of heroes.

Gil doesnt have the sword, he has the function, and a better one at that. Gil has the "root of all human knowledge" (not The Root) in the vault. Anything designed by or owned by anyone who might've only counted as a human for a split-second belongs in Gil's vault. There's literally no way out of this one. Also on the emptying vault thing, it's bullshit. Enkidu only managed it because at the time, Gil did not have all the weapons that came after him, which brought it to "infinite capacity".
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 05:00:53 AM
Ok so  Kuro proposed a Q and A thread. I agree with the idea. He's suggested the following rules.

The setup would come with a few rules that everyone, would have to follow.

1. All questions must be prefixed with Q. Answers Must be prefixed with A.
2. All questions directed to Lantz must be queries related to the Mechanics, background, equipment, feats, or abilities of Satoshi or his other characters.
3. Lantz must address all questions, he can however decline to provide an answer.
4. All answers are final, no complaining.
5. If Lantz is open to suggestions about something he will say as much in the relevant answer.
6. Lantz acknowledges that any question he declines to answer is then open to interpretation by others till such a time as he chooses to clarify.
7. I don't know is an acceptable answer.
8. Questions containing direct or indirect insults as interpreted by ME (MR IMPARTIAL) will be excluded from the above.

so follow the rules and ask your questions.

Edit: these rules were pasted from pm, the ME refers to Kuro.
Q. What does that mean? I asked how it could achieve an immeasurable level of damage which is basically EX. It's why I mentioned Ea and Transmigration Unto One.
Q. How does he exhaust a limitless vault? Which returns the treasures to him?
^There is something that returns the items to the vault as well.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 05:11:29 AM
Seeing lotta statements, not a lotta Questions
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 05:13:38 AM
Then answer the ones you are blatantly ignoring.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 05:14:27 AM
Read the rules Brah
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 05:16:19 AM
State the ones you dont want to answer instead of behaving like a five-year old about it and turning the other cheek.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 05:24:33 AM
Rule one Brah.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam on May 16, 2014, 05:37:50 AM
please have mercy and use the quote function
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 05:39:23 AM
1. All questions must be prefixed with Q. Answers Must be prefixed with A.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 16, 2014, 10:54:32 AM
Even if it's a retroactive paradox, Gil has an item in his vault, not neccesarily similar, but superior to whatever thing you have. Also GoB is self-fueled when it comes to Prana, Gil just needs to give it a target.

Erm, what?

Do you have a source for this claim? Because he certainly doesn't have Excalibur or Avalon in the vault, or anything similar or superior to them.

Gil has something that does exactly what Excalibur does better, he just doesn't have Excalibur itself.

No he doesn't. And he doesn't have Avalon or anything better than it, either.

This is probably best not discussed here, though, because it could go on for some time. We have a general Q&A thread for such things.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 03:08:19 PM
I'm just going to answer the general lemon question that bl noobs flame me for.

Q: why do you write lemons with Satoshi

A: the reason I write lemons period is as follows. Way back in the before time there existed a place called beast's lair on the mythical proboards. There Lantz came to have fun in the neato type noon fandom, he did and so he created a poll, what route should I do? It was decided for many lulz that Shinji's route would be the one. Much fun was had and jokes about pie being the secret to the good end were made.

After this I was given two pieces of feedback

1) get you a beta

2) learn to write lemons, it makes the routes feel more like the VN.

thus I went out to learn, as with many learning processes this took time and was clunky and awkward. I continued to use when characters don't work for some reason. Side note of flesh and fantasy is a parody which is meant to write basically all the stuff you'd never see like Lancer plowing caster taiga and Archer etcetera, Satoshi wasn't the original "MC" either.

Also while Satoshi is great he's not the only character I have, just saying.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
Even if it's a retroactive paradox, Gil has an item in his vault, not neccesarily similar, but superior to whatever thing you have. Also GoB is self-fueled when it comes to Prana, Gil just needs to give it a target.

Erm, what?

Do you have a source for this claim? Because he certainly doesn't have Excalibur or Avalon in the vault, or anything similar or superior to them.

Gil has something that does exactly what Excalibur does better, he just doesn't have Excalibur itself.

No he doesn't. And he doesn't have Avalon or anything better than it, either.

This is probably best not discussed here, though, because it could go on for some time. We have a general Q&A thread for such things.

This is literally the statement directly from CCC.

Also you are missing the point;

No, he does not have Excalibur or Avalon. He has, however, a similar object that's better at the same function (being the best holy sword/shooting kinetic beams of prana and dimension-hopping/omega regen respectively).

For an example used within the game itself, there's Karna's spear, Vasavi Shakti, a Divine Construct of the same magnitude as Excalibur and Avalon. Gil does not have Vasavi Shakti, but Gil without a doubt has a spear with the original version of Vasavi Shakti's function (killing immortals through the application of a Gaian concept of mortality).

Basically, presume that as long as it's been on earth and isn't bound by the rules of other celestial bodies, Gil has whatever your guy has, but better.

Once again, look up Plato's theory of forms. Using that as an example, Gil has the "perfect prototype" of whatever your guy has, no matter what it is. This is why he even has FTL spaceships that can cross the entire universe in seconds; He has the "root of all human wisdom" (again, different from The Root), and one day Nasu!Humans will build such a ship, so therefor Gil naturally has it.

I honestly dont give a shit if you find it unbelievable or implausible, Gil having everything ever has been established by CCC and confirmed by Word of God, no matter how special snowflake Satoshi is, Gil has anything he has and better. If lantz doesn't want that to be a thing, then he should write original fiction with Satoshi instead of relying upon the rules of the Nasuverse.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 05:13:15 PM
Q. If Acht is dead how does Satoshi inherit anything? There are other Einzberns.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 06:30:34 PM
Q. What does that mean? I asked how it could achieve an immeasurable level of damage which is basically EX. It's why I mentioned Ea and Transmigration Unto One.
Q. How does he exhaust a limitless vault? Which returns the treasures to him?

The first I would hold on as it may become irrelevant soon, the second is a valid request for clarification That should be addressed, though this time I will clarify the question.

Q. How is Gilgamesh able to empty a vault containing approximately infinite treasures, that is able to return said treasures to the vault before they touch the ground even when being fired by the hundreds or thousands?

In the case of the sword, I would say add to my previous suggestion a curse since it was forged in anger that forces the user to bear the weight of the life taken with the blade, to understand the true nature of that individual and what their life was to the world, and forever remember that they were the one to end it, because it needs to be worse than just feeling a life end, they need to know what that life meant.

Actually Avalon and Excalibur are entirely unique Originals that Gil doesn't have, that is why he want to add them to the vault.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 07:13:40 PM

Actually Avalon and Excalibur are entirely unique
You're right so far. Good

originals that Gil doesn't have, that is why he want to add them to the vault.

And you went and blew it with fanon. Don't get my hopes up like that.

1. Gil doesn't even know about Avalon, which is why he loses in Fate. He is shown to have an item in CCC that shuts down dimension-hopping, which would make Avalon impossible to use against him.

2. Gil has the functions of Excalibur and Avalon, he does not have the items themselves. I dont feel the need to repeat myself, just look at my post above. You are right in that the items themselves are uniques, but Gil still without a doubt has their functions.

3. Karna's Vasavi Shakti is explicitly the same type of object Avalon and Excalibur are, "one and only"'s made by Divine Spirits. Gil has the prototype of Vasavi Shakti.

4. Gil wants to add them to the vault because they're shiny. He has, amongst other things, also added Japanese playing cards from Hollow and Hakuno's lunch money to the vault. Please tell me more about how they're "unique existences" that get added to the vault because of that.

5. Like Mike, I presume you haven't played or read the translations (https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com) of CCC and are thus 100% unfit for even arguing against me.

Since this is your first offense in citing fanon, I'll let you off the hook. I want you to go to Beast's Lair and ask them this same question and see the results you get from the most premium Moon-readers of the TM fandom. They will be what you get here.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Daiki on May 16, 2014, 07:36:43 PM
Gilgamesh can't empty the vault as long as his NP is GoB. It happened back then when he was still a mortal(and young).

1. Gil doesn't even know about Avalon, which is why he loses in Fate. He is shown to have an item in CCC that shuts down dimension-hopping, which would make Avalon impossible to use against him.

Avalon isn't dimension travel. It is stated to be a miracle beyond True Magic and thus the Second can't compare/doesn't apply. There is no counter to something superior to cheating the system.



Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 07:40:31 PM

Avalon isn't dimension travel. It is stated to be a miracle beyond True Magic and thus the Second can't compare/doesn't apply. There is no counter to something superior to cheating the system.

It's an NP, therefor Gil has the Original function. There's no exceptions even if I got the exact mechanics of the item wrong.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Daiki on May 16, 2014, 07:50:39 PM
It doesn't matter if Gil has proto-Avalon. You can't counter Avalon period.

From Side Material:

It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
 If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her.


From CMIII:

•Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
 The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
 After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
 When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Sabre.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 07:55:39 PM
Fair enough. Even if he doesn't have a counter to it (which I find somewhat implausible, but sure, we'll go with it), he has the prototype, which was what I was arguing.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 16, 2014, 07:57:12 PM
Quote
It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
 If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her.

The string theory predicts either 11 or 26 dimensions, as I recall, hue.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 16, 2014, 08:05:49 PM
OK, can we please not use Lantz's Q&A thread for arguing about the contents of GoB? I moved the argument to a different thread for a reason....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 08:53:53 PM
@Umbra

A: there were, before Satoshi's 18th birthday, at that time, including Satoshi himself and Leysritt and Sella there are only six left.

@Kuro

A: last I checked NP's cost prana, so the GoB has limits. Further Satoshi stole the key (yes it has a key, the form is debatable but it's canon) so after that no gate.

as for the sword, no, a curse is a technicality, Satoshi has to have absolutely no wiggle room in being forced to accept what he's done. The horror must be felt, not imposed.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 09:01:09 PM

A: last I checked NP's cost prana, so the GoB has limits. Further Satoshi stole the key (yes it has a key, the form is debatable but it's canon) so after that no gate.



Shooting stuff from the GoB costs so little prana that it's not worth mentioning. Also there is nothing that doesnt say that Gil isn't using prana-generating NP's like the Book of Prelati within the Gate to restore what little mana he uses as he does it. That's not even getting into that he has more prana than can even be comprehended.

Also the Key is a part of the gate's contents and unless Satoshi can seal space like Enkidu, there's nothing that prevents Gil from just de-manifesting it and then making it reappear in his own hands.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 16, 2014, 09:04:14 PM
Q: As a knight, Satoshi doesn't seem to have a problem with stealing from royalty. Is that just because he hates Gilgamesh, or for some other reason?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 16, 2014, 09:08:27 PM
Quote
A: there were, before Satoshi's 18th birthday, at that time, including Satoshi himself and Leysritt and Sella there are only six left.

He would not inherit anyway. He is not Einzbern.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 09:20:07 PM
@Lyco

A: plenty of knight's steal from enemies, in this case however it's a strategic move amid combat, like disarming a sword.

Brah, Kat, please obey the rules or leave.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 09:22:52 PM
What are the reasons In universe and Narratively for Satoshi to become the Einzbern Heir?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
Q. How did Satoshi become the Einzbern heir?
(Homonculi don't count as Einzbern. They are simply tools for the family to use.)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 09:29:40 PM
Lantz, when you say things like obey the rules or leave, you are inviting negative reactions.

The rest of you (In the broad sense of those who are ignoring the thread rules.) this is a thread for asking questions, not debating the answers or lack thereof, if you want to debate things make another thread for it, this is not the place for it.

Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 09:34:47 PM

Brah, Kat, please obey the rules or leave.

No. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjONPb6zHg#t=155)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 10:13:45 PM
@Umbra

A: Iris Ilya and Justica agreed to the idea since, spoiler alert, Shirou is Kiritsugu's son.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 10:14:42 PM
All 3 of them are dead. Also the Einzberns don't like Kiritsugu at all to begin with, so yeah, suspension of disbelief is getting tied up and bent over the table again.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 10:28:21 PM
Any questions I missed?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 10:31:03 PM
Q. How did Irisvel, Illya, and Justica even make a choice? 2 of the three are already dead, and Illya is dead within the year.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 10:56:00 PM
@Umbra

A: Justica isn't dead, she's the core of the grail system, the system connected to Akasha, the root. The akashic record is the past present and future for everything. Using the record reassembly of people is easy. Ilya was rescued by Touko among others.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 16, 2014, 10:57:32 PM
Q: What is "your" Touko like, if she does things like that? I don't think Rin or Sakura would be able to pay her enough.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 10:59:31 PM
@Lyco

A: K&K Touko, her payment was well received.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 11:02:44 PM
1. Grail doesnt connect to the Root. It's capable of reaching it, however.

2. Souls get recycled (however, this is implying Justizia, Illya and Iri even had a soul, which they don't, so you cant "reassemble them with the root".)

3. Nothing we know of can save Illya from her fate.

4. Grail gets deconstructed by Waver, Rin and the MA after the 5th war if it's not destroyed.

5. Grail wouldn't have prana to reach the root on Satoshi's 18th birthday. It takes the full 60 years, F/SN being the exception because the Grail got preemptively destroyed in the 4th.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 16, 2014, 11:04:59 PM
Q: What was Touko's payment?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 16, 2014, 11:07:05 PM
Brah, this is not the "argue with Lantz thread", cut it out.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 11:08:06 PM
Brah, this is not the "argue with Lantz thread", cut it out.

No, this is the "Lantz gives answers to his character thread". I am asking for answers that are not flat-out incorrect.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 16, 2014, 11:09:44 PM
No, read what Kuro said in the rules he made for the thread. No complaining about the answers. You can ask questions to clarify things, but not start arguing about his answers.

Those rules are there to stop this thread turning out like every other Lantz Q&A thread, and you seem intent on ruining it for everyone else regardless of that.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 11:11:00 PM
Let me re-iterate my statement. I am asking for clarification for the answers that are not flat-out incorrect.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 11:11:59 PM
@Lyco

A: an assistant and massive support for her research.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 16, 2014, 11:13:37 PM
Let me re-iterate my statement. I am asking for clarification for the answers that are not flat-out incorrect.

Then ask it as a question rather than making a statement. Hint: questions have a ? in them, and, in this thread, begin with a "Q:".

@Lyco
A: an assistant and massive support for her research.

Q: Who is the assistant, and what sort of support? Monetary or otherwise?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 16, 2014, 11:22:13 PM
@Cherry

A: Satoshi, several kinds including but not limited to funding from the MA
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 16, 2014, 11:24:00 PM
Q. How is funding from the MA possible when Touko is a sealing designate?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 11:26:59 PM
I got this. (Note that Umbra's answers have not been approved by lantz and should not be taken seriously.)
@Kuro
A. Rin is giving Touko her funding from the MA. Or at least most of it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 16, 2014, 11:42:10 PM
Well, I recall that the Rin that is in Cross Effects is the head of the Magic Association back home, so that probably has something to do with it....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 16, 2014, 11:43:59 PM
Wait what? The Barthomelois would take that position instantly if it wasn't for the fact that the actual Director was a 2000 year old uber magus who managed to avoid soul rot. He is very unlikely to die, and if he does Lorelei would assume control.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 16, 2014, 11:49:34 PM
Head doesn't hand out or retract Sealing Designations, and the heads of the MA are Lorelei and the unnamed Dean who's been around since the Age of Gods. Even if either were to die, Barthomeloi relatives would instantly be promoted to the Heads, those guys have a complete lockdown on the MA.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 16, 2014, 11:59:34 PM
Q: What are the reasons In universe and Narratively for Satoshi to become the Einzbern Heir?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 01:38:11 AM
@Kuro

A: She's not

@Gray

A: same reason, already stated previously, he's Kiritsugu's grandson.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 17, 2014, 01:42:47 AM
Q: With regards to the answer to Kuro, who isn't what?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 01:45:40 AM
A. Touko apparently isn't a sealing designate.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 17, 2014, 01:53:52 AM
@Kuro

A: She's not

@Gray

A: same reason, already stated previously, he's Kiritsugu's grandson.
Kerry was a mercenary for the Einzberns. Nothing more, especially after he failed them in the fourth war.

Q. Why does Satoshi have a whip sword. Whip swords are shit at being swords. Also why does he have Mordreds blade? Why does he use the UBW chant?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 01:58:18 AM
Touko does have a Sealing Designation. Rin points out that that's why she was so hard to track down in HF True. She got it after she first made the perfect replica bodies of herself.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 02:01:04 AM
@Cherry

A: Touko is not a sealing target

@Arch

A: Utility weapon used as a tool, he left his real swords as grave markers

A: he beat Mordred in a dual because Mordred got lazy and thought she'd win without trying

A: he doesn't
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 17, 2014, 02:05:28 AM
...That is the fucking stupidest answer ever. Whip swords are fucking awful weapons for anything beyond showing off.

And he does use the UBW chant in a modified form. See Of Swords and Sorcery Chronological edition.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 17, 2014, 02:12:06 AM
http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Aara (http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Aara)

Link to whip it good! Sword.

Arch, most likely it's magic to allow it to be useful. Problem is, you need it to be magic to be useful.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 17, 2014, 02:16:04 AM
Q: How does the whip sword change into a shield? Does it completely morph into one? And how big is the shield?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 17, 2014, 02:18:04 AM
http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Aara (http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Aara)

Link to whip it good! Sword.

Arch, most likely it's magic to allow it to be useful. Problem is, you need it to be magic to be useful.
Exactly. Even if lolmagic, why not a magic scimitar or other slashing blade?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 02:21:40 AM
Q. Touko isn't a sealing designate in Satoshi's world?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 02:21:58 AM
@Salto

A:it's a series of solid metal plates which change configuration using the switches in the hilt. The sword is as big as Hercules axe sword.

@Umbra

A: not after Rin took over
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 02:26:39 AM
Rin could never take the MA over in a million years if ZELRETCH couldnt
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 02:29:36 AM
How did Rin take over the MA?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: YOLF on May 17, 2014, 02:33:25 AM
...That is the fucking stupidest answer ever. Whip swords are fucking awful weapons for anything beyond showing off.

And he does use the UBW chant in a modified form. See Of Swords and Sorcery Chronological edition.

Cool it Magos.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 02:40:04 AM
@Umbra

nearly missed the question dude, remember the Q.

A: Saber gave her the position, see before character material 3 existed I had to flesh out the MA's origins myself. As such in Satoshi's universe the  MA is descended from a group of mages waiting King Arthur's return.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 02:42:26 AM
@Umbra

nearly missed the question dude, remember the Q.

A: Saber gave her the position, see before character material 3 existed I had to flesh out the MA's origins myself. As such in Satoshi's universe the  MA is descended from a group of mages waiting King Arthur's return.

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Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 02:50:51 AM
Any questions?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 17, 2014, 02:53:55 AM
@Umbra

nearly missed the question dude, remember the Q.

A: Saber gave her the position, see before character material 3 existed I had to flesh out the MA's origins myself. As such in Satoshi's universe the  MA is descended from a group of mages waiting King Arthur's return.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO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(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/SailorWolf768/Reaction%20gifs/tumblr_inline_mny58ea6Pz1qz4rgp_zpsf11dc132.gif)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 02:55:43 AM
Q: How did you come to this epic failure of logic about the MA considering their outlook on things? Even without their specifics from CM3, the entire world-spanning organization cannot POSSIBLY be all some 1500-year old failure of a king's fanboys.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: YOLF on May 17, 2014, 03:04:21 AM
Guys, just ask questions and be respectful. I mean, you're in the thread the least you could do is bother to follow the rules decently.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam on May 17, 2014, 03:37:34 AM
@Umbra

nearly missed the question dude, remember the Q.

A: Saber gave her the position, see before character material 3 existed I had to flesh out the MA's origins myself. As such in Satoshi's universe the  MA is descended from a group of mages waiting King Arthur's return.
ok that's pretty lame
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 04:02:35 AM
Actual questions please instead of unhelpful snark and insults.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 17, 2014, 04:18:51 AM
Lantz, I am thinking now that it might be a good idea to start putting together a setting material with all the differences between canon and your rigorously designed AU, nothing spoilery, just ironing out what can be held to canon and what is from Lantzverse.

It would end alot of the arguing from people trying to fit your AU and the characters from it into Canon.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 04:28:40 AM
That's actually part of another thread I'm developing.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Alice on May 17, 2014, 04:39:58 AM
Can't we just put it in the OP of this one? Things are getting too cluttered with all this as it is.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 04:55:48 AM
No Alice, it's an informational index for the details of all my projects, everything has details, oneshots and everything else. Separating a single project makes it incomplete. Besides that the amount of characters is too much to post in the op.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 17, 2014, 05:21:03 PM
Lantz. You can use something called an index and spoiler tags. That would make it much less cluttered and wouldn't force those walls of text you hate on others
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 05:32:49 PM
Q. What happened to the rest of the Einzberns? There should be at least a few others.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 05:37:30 PM
No Gray, that won't work. Side note Kuro, Lantzverse, never call it that please, further I'm not certain I could encompass every difference between canon and the necessary adaptations I've made without re researching all the material and I'm sorta stretched for time as it is, I do in fact have a real life.

So keep asking questions about stuff if you want.

@Umbra

A: Undetermined, presumed dead
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 05:56:30 PM
I presume Out of Character Saber killed them in cold blood just like Acht.

Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 17, 2014, 05:57:24 PM
Lantz. You can use something called an index and spoiler tags. That would make it much less cluttered and wouldn't force those walls of text you hate on others

Spoiler tags don't help bypass the post character limit.

Plus, this isn't the right place for it anyway, to be honest. A seperate thread would make it much easier to find the information, and also potentially allow people to discuss it.

I presume Out of Character Saber killed them in cold blood just like Acht.

Just because Saber is chivalrous, that doesn't mean she won't kill people who she thinks deserve it. I'm sure she was directly or indirectly responsible for the executions of people far less monstrous than Acht in her lifetime (hell, she ordered the execution of her own wife for an affair she was quite OK with). On the scale of monstrosity, Acht is on a similar level to Zouken due to what he does to the Einsbern Homonculi, and Saber would know that because of Ilya. Killing him is entirely justifiable.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 06:17:52 PM
Quote
Killing him is entirely justifiable.

No, it's a murder in a civilized country.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 06:39:45 PM
Kat, either actually read my posts or desist posting in this thread, snark and hate are neither welcome nor allowed here.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 06:42:11 PM
Most of democratic countries don't have death penalty, and even if, lynching is not a justice even there.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 17, 2014, 06:46:59 PM
Kat, either actually read my posts or desist posting in this thread, snark and hate are neither welcome nor allowed here.
Hate? Snark? Seriously if you think Kat's last comments were hate you are indeed on crack.

Q Why did you choose to name your OC's after canon characters, especially when such practice isn't really done in Japan? Did you do any sort of research into Japanese society and the like before starting this?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 06:52:07 PM
Q. How is Saber capable of having children?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 06:52:16 PM
@Arch

A: made sense at the time and to be frank the four in question Shirou,Saber,Rin and Archer don't seem like the type to give a fuck one way or another in terms of naming conventions.

@Umbra

A: Saber returned from Avalon, she is not a servant.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 06:56:41 PM
Q. How did she return from Avalon?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 07:04:06 PM
@Umbra

A: prophecy, the king shall return when the world needs him ( in this case her) the once and FUTURE  king.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 17, 2014, 07:06:33 PM
Q: Why did the world need her?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 07:07:27 PM
Q. Why would she come now when she ignored the Battle of Britain and a hundred year war against the French? What great catastrophe could have brought her back?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 07:20:01 PM
Lantz, Saber ruled a backwater kingdom.

Gilgamesh sooner would return to save the world than her.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 07:33:05 PM
@Cherry

A: Altrouge and company were poised to vampire apocalypse everything.

@Umbra

A: Nasu never had her return those times. Don't blame me for Nasu's lack or possible errors
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 07:36:06 PM
Vampire: the Apocalypse.

Werewolf: the Masquerade.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 07:36:54 PM
Q. How did Satoshi perform the complicated art of blacksmithing while he was crazy?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 07:38:51 PM
Q: Why do you presume Saber will ever return when she is destined to die at the Battle of Camlann.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 17, 2014, 07:54:23 PM
A. King Arthur is in Avalon, Nasu said that.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 07:54:51 PM
Avalon is an afterlife, that's my exact point. She's dead.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 17, 2014, 08:05:38 PM
Actually, no, it's not, not in the traditional sense anyway. It's pretty clear in the legend of King Arthur that she is taken there before she dies, and it is traditionally said that she will return when the country needs her (although, of course, her actual country is now just a small part of Britain that doesn't currently have self-rule).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 08:07:10 PM
Except this is not Arthurian Myth!Avalon, but Nasu!Avalon. Stop pretending Nasu actually gives a fuck about the original myth in his writing.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 08:08:50 PM
@Umbra

A: never explained intentionally, it's similar to other maddened creation myth. The important part is that it happened, not so much why.

@Brah

A: it's part of the legend
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 08:12:32 PM
A: it's part of the legend

Except this is not Arthurian Myth!Avalon, but Nasu!Avalon. Stop pretending Nasu actually gives a fuck about the original myth in his writing.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/135/466/dealwithit.gif)

@Umbra

A: never explained intentionally, it's similar to other maddened creation myth. The important part is that it happened, not so much why.

Give me a single example of a "maddened creation myth". Please do.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 08:13:17 PM
@Umbra

A: never explained intentionally, it's similar to other maddened creation myth. The important part is that it happened, not so much why.
Q. wtf does this mean
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 08:13:50 PM
@Umbra

A: never explained intentionally, it's similar to other maddened creation myth. The important part is that it happened, not so much why.

Give me a single example of a "maddened creation myth". Please do.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 17, 2014, 08:18:21 PM
You know what also wasn't part of the legend?
King arthur secretly being a girl.
You're dealing with Nasu Arthur so as Brah said deal with it
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 08:28:12 PM
@Umbra

A: I can't answer that because it's too vague

@Brah and Gray

drop the attitudes
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 08:29:20 PM
Q. Can you give me an example of a maddened creation myth?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 08:30:47 PM

drop the attitudes

That's not an answer, and I was 100% genuine. If a single swear word makes you feel butthurt how have you survived on the internet so long?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 08:32:55 PM
Lantz, the Avalon part was not even in original myths to begin with.

Original Arthur was closer in attitude to FSN Gilgamesh than Arturia. Eh, collected treasures, fought gods and monsters and was not afraid of anything.

Bedivere made Merlin look like a pussy, being both master swordsman and commanding infernal magic. With one arm.

Gaius/Kai was a mutant. How else you would call a man who could emit supernatural heat from his body, grow in size and be immune to elements.

Gawain had the power set of Extra Gawain, but his adventures were long streak of fucking women and murdering people. Even in post-Geoffrey tales.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 08:37:08 PM
Brah, read the rules.

Kat Lancelot exists in the Nasuverse, ergo any myth excluding him in regards to the overall mythos does not count, I use T.H. White's the Once and Future king. Understand and accept this fact.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 08:38:11 PM
I use T.H. White's the Once and Future king. Understand and accept this fact.

Which is not Canon to the nasuverse, therefor we should completely ignore this "fact".

Write original fiction if you want to pull bullshit like this.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 17, 2014, 08:40:10 PM
Q. Can you give me an example of a maddened creation myth?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 08:42:01 PM
Lantz, I recommend you reading Sapkowski's compendium of Arthurian lore after I translate it for BL and DSM this summer. Learn from more successful writer than even BL's best fic writers like Moczo and Arashi.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 08:47:52 PM
@Umbra

A: as I recall Muramasa created demon swords while totally off his rocker.

@Kat

no, I'd prefer not to read a haphazard translation of a foreign take on myths. Cultural perspective has a lot to do with Myth.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 08:50:40 PM
@Umbra

A: as I recall Muramasa created demon swords while totally off his rocker.


Incorrect, Muramasa simply was the best at what he did when he was really angry and of poor state of mind, not stark raving lovecraftian-level insane.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 08:54:59 PM
Quote
no, I'd prefer not to read a haphazard translation of a foreign take on myths. Cultural perspective has a lot to do with Myth.

I'm Masters Associate in translation with very good final grades (applying for Ph.D studies and attending international conferences), so I'm more qualified than most people, and besides, Sapkowski discusses all takes on the myth, not only the original.

Besides, Arthurian lore is the common heritage of Europe in the same vein as Greco-Roman vein, so dismissing non-English writer is xenophobic.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 10:27:12 PM
I'm simply aware that the book will have a bias, I prefer not to have that.

now questions please
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 10:29:42 PM
Hahahahahaha, don't tell me whatever you deem is the only true objective canon and dozens if not hundreds of writers are "biased".
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 17, 2014, 10:30:05 PM
Because a single book is gonna be SOOOOOOOOOO much more neutral than a neutral compilation.

Lantz you are a failure of logic.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 17, 2014, 10:35:35 PM
There is also the fact that Sapkowski mentions from time to time Once and Future King too, and in rather neutral tone.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 10:59:59 PM
I repeat, thread op relevant questions
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 17, 2014, 11:04:05 PM
Q: Why is the Dragon bonded to Satoshi's soul?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 17, 2014, 11:16:10 PM
@Salto

A: Because the Dragon accepted the idea when he was brought to the Dragon by Merlin
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 17, 2014, 11:19:14 PM
@Salto

A: Because the Dragon accepted the idea when he was brought to the Dragon by Merlin

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/SailorWolf768/Reaction%20gifs/tumblr_inline_mny58ea6Pz1qz4rgp_zpsf11dc132.gif)



k. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDKgVtbGhmI)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 18, 2014, 04:31:34 AM
Q. Why isn't Satoshi growing scales and a tail since his soul fused with the dragon?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 18, 2014, 04:43:31 AM
Maybe he is and you just can't see them.

-THEORY- Tell me what you think of this.
More seriously it could be that Satoshi is 100% dragon now, but can take human form because the dragon could shapeshift, or Satoshi could shapeshift before and kept it after becoming dragon.

On a less theory laden path it is likely that Lantz's AU has a different set of rules for how body and soul interact.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 18, 2014, 04:50:32 AM
@Umbra

A: he was, it stopped after his battle with Orboros
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 18, 2014, 04:52:14 AM
Q. How? Unless he removed the dragon part his body would still reflect the duality of his soul.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 18, 2014, 05:00:44 AM
@Umbra

A: Short answer, he mastered the aspects of his soul and unified them.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 18, 2014, 05:52:16 AM
Yeah it seems that you like mashing together what you think is awesome and min maxing those aspects just like I do. I know that feel bro. I just don't thing doing it with multiple things is good for a protagonist.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 18, 2014, 09:20:45 AM
I'll have vampire Mordred, so I'm a minor offender in this case too.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 18, 2014, 09:37:03 AM
I said earlier that I'd make this guy (http://garo.wikia.com/wiki/Barago). But in the end, I guess I'll just stick to an OC. Sadly.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 18, 2014, 11:03:20 AM
This thread is for questions, not snark and discussion. Ask questions or please go elsewhere.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 18, 2014, 03:48:07 PM
Q. Will you ever consider making any changes to how your verse and characters are? We're not asking for your verse to bend itself over to our will, but maybe making a few changes won't make you a sellout.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 18, 2014, 03:50:18 PM
I'll have vampire Mordred, so I'm a minor offender in this case too.
I said I did know that feel. I want to play a min/maxed Lancelot and Shirou hybrid with a reality marble called "Infinite Arms Forge". I think I know how to mash concept together for the sake of (personal) coolness
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 18, 2014, 05:23:09 PM
@Qwerty

A: I've said this a dozen times. I already have extensively done so in my prior edits to the work. In addition a few pages back Kuro openly suggested stuff and I responded to it.

in short ask questions and think and maybe suggest alternative ways of doing things.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 18, 2014, 08:18:55 PM
It seems like unlike a lot of other writers, Lantz prefers when people suggest solutions rather than just point out flaws.

So if you have time to argue and complain, try suggesting ways to fix the problems that you see that isn't "scrap it and start over"; it might take awhile, but with some patience you just might get somewhere.

Arguments and insults on the other hand will never get you anywhere with Lantz, so why not try a different approach, you might be surprised by the result.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 18, 2014, 08:35:57 PM
There are writers who like criticisms like "this is shit, start again"? I would have thought most writers would prefer some help in overcoming flaws in their work, I certainly do.

But, yeah, suggesting an alternative can be very helpful in at least some cases. Telling someone that a fundamental part of their story doesn't work won't get you anywhere if they don't have an alternative, because they either have to just roll with it or start from scratch, and for most people it is not worth starting from scratch just to fix a relatively minor error of canon.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 18, 2014, 08:39:17 PM
Exactly guys, from the start I've always said. If you want to poke a hole in my sails then bring the cloth to fix it. Suggesting an alternative is constructive. Flaming is not.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 18, 2014, 08:42:58 PM
In this case though the sail has been torn to ribbons too small to fix, and there is no other option than to make a new sail entirely.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 18, 2014, 08:43:41 PM
OK. Instead of Avalon making him invincible all the time, its a powerful healing factor instead, with the option of activating it like his mom to protect AN AREA. That way, he still has Avalon, he's still tough, but now he can actually get hurt (allowing for more drama in fights and risks on his end), and he can use it to directly protect others, albeit briefly.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 18, 2014, 08:47:21 PM
In this case though the sail has been torn to ribbons too small to fix, and there is no other option than to make a new sail entirely.

With enough thread one can make a sail from ribbons and scraps, there is no such thing as too far gone, there is only "worth trying to save" and "not worth the effort", if it was not worth the effort you would not be in this thread.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 18, 2014, 08:50:09 PM
I forgot to mention the cloth is rotted.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 18, 2014, 08:55:42 PM
In this case though the sail has been torn to ribbons too small to fix, and there is no other option than to make a new sail entirely.

With enough thread one can make a sail from ribbons and scraps, there is no such thing as too far gone, there is only "worth trying to save" and "not worth the effort", if it was not worth the effort you would not be in this thread.

I think you're overestimating Arch's ability to just ignore fics he thinks aren't worth saving....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 18, 2014, 08:59:00 PM
I forgot to mention the cloth is rotted.

That gives the sail more character, all it means is that there may be more need of patching as things go along, and damn if I am not invested at this point, I will see this boat sail if it kills me.

And let's please stop with the sailing analogies.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Knick on May 18, 2014, 09:03:25 PM
That gives the sail more character, all it means is that there may be more need of patching as things go along, and damn if I am not invested at this point, I will see this boat sail if it kills me.

And let's please stop with the sailing analogies.

Boat metaphors are best metaphors.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 18, 2014, 09:18:25 PM
Enough with the metaphor, back to questions and suggestions, also Arch go, I dunno play pogs or something.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 18, 2014, 09:29:10 PM
Totally made a suggestion. You gonna ignore that one as well?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 18, 2014, 10:51:07 PM
Here is a suggestion. One that I have made before but I will now announce publically to see if anyone else may take similar view.

I don't stay destroy Satoshi but I suggest you streamline him. He has a lot of roles and abilties and adventures and he's been there and back a couple of times already. Sure you can have character like that but some of the other aspects of this large journey or vision that you have for this adventure can be split into multiple facets. You can have multiple characters   tackling one of the narrative concepts or struggles that you want to push Satoshi through individually or as a group. I'm not saying turn him into a bunch of flat characters I'm saying that instead of juggling so many aspects in one OC you can fragment and streamline the concepts you choose to tackle. Don't put all you narrative/thematic "eggs" in one "basket" is all I'm saying.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 19, 2014, 01:17:36 AM
Avalon is already like that Qwerty

No gray, I'm not splitting the character into others
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 19, 2014, 02:33:55 AM
Why not? Is it integral to have every single thing you want this guy to do in one character? You can still keep your general idea of satoshi at the core it's just you can put somethings like being the heir of the einzbern to some other character or so such. While many characters do have some very varied adventures it's either after several dozen volumes, or after passing through many writer's hands that this happens.
While I agree that a main character should get a lot of focus in the story Satoshi seems to have a lot of things with him as the focal point. Give those things to somone else, share the plot with other characters.

Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 19, 2014, 02:37:39 AM
Yes, it is, Satoshi is the journeyman here. He travels learns and participating in the journey's of others. Splitting him into parts means hacking his character. You seem to think that he is the only original character or the only character to have focus period. That is fault.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 19, 2014, 09:03:33 PM
@Umbra

A: Short answer, he mastered the aspects of his soul and unified them.

That still doesn't get rid of the dragon aspect.
Q. How did "unifying" his soul help stop his body from changing ?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 20, 2014, 12:49:51 AM
Maybe it didn't. The thought comes to mind that Satoshi could be human on the outside, dragon on the inside. Though that theory has a huge hole in that if all his insides were dragon he would have little issue with using dragon fire.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 01:58:06 AM
The issue is also that the body reflects the soul. This is why Shirou gets filled with swords and why Zouken looks like a decrepit old fuck no matter how many bodies he eats. If Satoshi has somehow unified his soul with that of the dragon (which should completely overpower his own, dragons are just that infinitely superior to humans), he should be covered in draconic features.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 02:04:34 AM
Shirou only gets filled with swords in extreme circumstances, though. Usually he is perfectly normal.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 20, 2014, 02:08:17 AM
True, but the fact is that was because Shirou's soul was being overwritten by Archer's.

Basically, when Satoshi gets the dragon soul, it SHOULD just overwrite his own.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 02:32:48 AM
Shirou only gets filled with swords in extreme circumstances, though. Usually he is perfectly normal.

And Zouken's didnt start rotting until after some 300 years, I don't see your point. Souls manifest when they or their bodies are exposed to strong phenomena. Satoshi's soul should be snuffed out by even trying to share a body with a Dragon soul, even if he "unified" it later.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 02:56:47 AM
Brah, Arch you have been told many times that your behavior is not what is expected in this thread.

@Umbra

A: the soul isn't just one level, unifying the two changed his metaphysical presence.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 02:59:33 AM
yeah, no, that's not how souls work.

Stop shooing people out for trying to tell you how Nasuverse mechanics work, even outside canon materials. If you don't want to be bound by these mechanics (which you obviously dont) then write original fiction.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 03:04:55 AM
...write original fiction.
What a novel idea. :P
But no, seriously, lantz: that isn't how souls work in Nasuverse.

Q: What frig does "the soul isn't just one level" even mean? Where does this idea even come from?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 20, 2014, 03:05:40 AM
@Umbra

A: the soul isn't just one level, unifying the two changed his metaphysical presence.

(http://i.imgur.com/0rgC6.gif)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 03:11:32 AM
@Lyco

A: many spiritual beliefs Lyco. Including those beliefs like reincarnation.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 20, 2014, 03:17:40 AM
Q: ....And how does that exactly come into play?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 03:18:51 AM
No, reincarnation follows that the same soul is passed on to another life. Unification of souls is apparent in literally no spiritual beliefs.

In fact it's somewhat offensive that you hang out beliefs you can't even name (because you obviously haven't done your research, par the usual) for the sake of saving your stupid argument.

The closest thing to unification of "souls" in spiritual beliefs are that the Boddhisattva becoming one and the same upon reaching Nirvana, but there is no reference to "the soul" in that regard.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 03:26:06 AM
Reincarnation doesn't mean someone's soul is an onion where the "layers" are each "life", lantz - which is what I assume you are implying.

Kindly actually do research before you start spouting off things like that.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 03:27:31 AM
Salto

A: clarify.

Brah stop putting words in my mouth and leave.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 20, 2014, 03:28:50 AM
@Lyco

A: many spiritual beliefs Lyco. Including those beliefs like reincarnation.

You do know how souls in the Nasuverse work right? If you fuse two souls you don't eliminate one. If there is dragon anywhere in there then he should begin to exhibit draconic characteristics. There isn't any way out of this. You either have a fusion of the soul and get Satoshi to grow a tail, scales, or anything that a dragon would have. Or there is no dragon soul attached. It's one or the other. You're already skirting the line by not having Satoshi's soul get destroyed by having a fucking dragon's soul fuse with his.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 03:30:40 AM
Brah stop putting words in my mouth and leave.

@Lyco

A: many spiritual beliefs Lyco. Including those beliefs like reincarnation.

I put your own words in your own mouth. Now would your kindly clarify on how this retarded "unification" works?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Puck-Chan on May 20, 2014, 03:31:44 AM
Salto

A: clarify.


(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/259/943/694.png)

Q: Spiritual beliefs having to do with your unity of both Suetoshi's and Dragon's souls. Explain it.


Btw, your work fits as original fiction. K?






Edit: GUISE! GUISE..... DRAGON DICK.

(http://dudelol.com/img/my-dick-is-a-dragon-and-your-argument-is-invalid.jpg)

Maybe he has that actually.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 03:41:47 AM
Desist and ask actual questions or leave.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 03:42:51 AM
Q: what in the fuck is a "unification of souls" and for what reason should I believe that it doesn't rape the mechanics of the nasuverse in it's bunghole?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 03:43:41 AM
Desist and ask actual questions or leave.
Salto just asked you to explain, lantz. And as someone who has more than a passing knowledge of mythology and religion, I'm rather...irked by your "I'm right about reincarnation and everyone else is wrong" thing. Reincarnation doesn't mean souls are onions.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on May 20, 2014, 03:55:50 AM
OK, guys, this is getting ridiculous. Either follow the rules of the thread (which includes not complaining about the answers he gives and being respectful) or just leave, OK?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 20, 2014, 03:59:34 AM
^ This. This thread is meant to be a place to ask questions, and give suggestions if needed, yet all I see is complaining, with no useful contribution

Lantz AU has different Soul Mechanics from canon Nasuverse. What a shocking development, it almost makes one think that it is an alternate universe where the rules are different from what we know. Now stop ignoring the rules and arguing without contributing any useful suggestions, or I start reporting people.

Q. What are the soul mechanics in your AU?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Augustine on May 20, 2014, 04:00:58 AM
^ This. This thread is meant to be a place to ask questions, and give suggestions if needed, yet all I see is complaining, with no useful contribution

Lantz AU has different Soul Mechanics from canon Nasuverse. What a shocking development, it almost makes one think that it is an alternate universe where the rules are different from what we know. Now stop ignoring the rules and arguing without contributing any useful suggestions, or I start reporting people.

Q. What are the soul mechanics in your AU?

We might as well just ask, what are the magecraft mechanics?  What are the life mechanics?  What are the mechanics in general? 
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on May 20, 2014, 04:11:31 AM
Soul mechanics are a narrow enough topic that Lantz should be able to answer in a couple of paragraphs even if he made an entirely new system.

If I remember correctly he said that he is actually working on a materials set to deal with those questions, I just thought that the topic at hand was narrow enough that it would stand addressing here.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 04:38:27 AM
@Kuro

A: the cosmology of the story includes every afterlife and alternate areas like the shadow lands.

as such the throne is not the only thing to deal with souls. Souls can gain weight, elements etcetera depending on the conditions as well.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 20, 2014, 06:42:38 AM
GUISE GUISE! remember he's got magic. He could probably shape shift. He could look like whatever he wants and since he's got so much mana, he probably doesn't even need to look like what he's supposed to look like.

Q. Could you better explain to us how the souls are bonded?

Q. What prevents Satoshi's soul from being overridden by the Dragon's soul, as a powerful natural being would have a far greater weight in its soul than its host?

Q. What benefits does the dragon gain from bonding with Satoshi?

Q. What is the dragon's name (if it doesn't have a name a human can say, what does your cast call it? Just dragon?)
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 06:51:23 AM
@Qwerty

A: Ancient rituals created by the dragons to create champions.

A: The dragon itself and later the mastery of the aspect.

A: A champion to defend and serve him

A: the name is never given, it's in the dragon language. Everytime the name is said most people just flinch and nod to keep their ears from bleeding.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 10:12:11 AM
Quote
A champion to defend and serve him

Why friggin DRAGON needs a bodyguard?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 20, 2014, 11:47:11 AM
^ This. This thread is meant to be a place to ask questions, and give suggestions if needed, yet all I see is complaining, with no useful contribution

Lantz AU has different Soul Mechanics from canon Nasuverse. What a shocking development, it almost makes one think that it is an alternate universe where the rules are different from what we know. Now stop ignoring the rules and arguing without contributing any useful suggestions, or I start reporting people.

There is nothing to contribute. Lantz's Nasuverse is so different from the actual one you could make it Original Fiction and suffer absolutely no consequences. There is nothing we can do to help because canon no longer applies in any way.

Edit: AU can be Sakura being kepy by Tokiomi, different servants being summoned, or even fucking servant mechas(as long as you can explain it). Lantz is absolutely destroying canon without any explanation on why it's different, and there is no way you can explain why the soul mechanics are different.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
The reason I'm saying lantz should write original fiction isn't because it's bad (which it is), it's because then I can stop trying to treat it like it's in any way related to the Nasuverse. It's not about AU, or raping established canon, it's that he flat-out refuses to adhere to the established mechanics of that universe and all the worldbuilding within it. The unwritten rule of writing fiction of any decent caliber is that you obey to the rules of the universe you write within. Urobuchi didn't go "I'm doing it anyway because it sounds cool" when Nasu told him to not make a Xian a Caster for Zero because that defies the established mechanics of the Grail (read: The Grail cannot summon spirits from "the east", meaning China, Japan and anything else east of India. Before you say "but what about the Moon Cell?", Moon Cell works 100% differently and Medea got Kojiro by forcing the Grail to give her it's best shot; a nameless farmer who resembled Kojiro), he went "Oh shit nigga, lemme find someone else" and got Gilles.

Even if lantz tries to handwave that "Satoshi predates the now-translated material", it still puts him in 100% defiance of the things established in the Nasuverse (MA, an organization that's been around since the Age of Gods, being a world-spanning group of Seiba fanboys that will WILLINGLY hand over control to a Magus from a backwater country because Seiba-sama said so? What the hell were you smoking, and where can I buy it?).

TL:DR: I refuse to believe that lantz actually has interest in writing a Nasu fic, and am hoping from the bottom of my heart that he is trying to get legs on a original fictional universe instead of ass-raping a canon that I love dearly.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 01:47:58 PM
Guys, you heard what KAIZA and Kuro said, so cut it out or leave.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 20, 2014, 02:05:22 PM
Guys, you heard what KAIZA and Kuro said, so cut it out or leave.

Would you rather I create a thread for criticising Lantz's answers?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 02:07:51 PM
Not really, but this thread is specifically not for doing so. Kuro made the rules as he did for a reason, and if people don't follow them and they are not enforced Lantz will eventually just stop answering the questions. KAIZA said to stop, that means you should stop, not ignore him and keep going regardless.

And, further, you're not actually even criticising Lantz's answers here. All you're doing is saying "Lantz's fanfic is crap". That is entirely non-constructive, and all you are doing is ruining the thread for everyone else, so just stop doing it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 02:12:43 PM
Ask questions or leave guys. The rules are on page one.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 02:16:38 PM
I hope reacting to answers is fine too.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 02:21:25 PM
Reactions and tearing stuff down aren't really ok, turn them into questions and suggestions instead.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 02:30:46 PM
@Kuro
A: the cosmology of the story includes every afterlife and alternate areas like the shadow lands.
as such the throne is not the only thing to deal with souls. Souls can gain weight, elements etcetera depending on the conditions as well.
Q: What the frig does this even mean? And why do you use "Nasuverse" when everything points towards you doing better with original fiction?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 02:37:09 PM
I hope reacting to answers is fine too.

See what Lantz said. Ask a question (politely) or make a constructive suggestion about how to improve it (and, no, repeating the same extreme suggestion over and over is not constructive).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 02:37:18 PM
@Lyco

A: your question borders on harassment Lyco. Rephrase please.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 02:41:31 PM
Lantz, using every kind of mythological afterlife will make your work inconsistent and clumsy in that regard. Just see what mess was caused by Kindred of The East in classic World of Darkness, which introduced separate hell and afterlife for Asian, clashing with the universal afterlife of Wraith: The Oblivion. And these were only TWO different systems introduced.

I would recommend sticking to how it works in canon, I mean recycling of souls. Unless they are recorded by the Throne (which is not afterlife, the Heroic Spirits are frozen in time).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 02:54:19 PM
That makes no sense Kat. These places exist because the heroes largely went there. Excluding them from existence just leaves a big question mark around. Nasu's canon is, as I've proved many times inconsistent. I know I'm bending the rules but my bends make more sense than his dead end roads. I will prefer to bend the rules a thousand times to establish internal consistency then be canon correct and have big derp ? Over the story.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 03:05:06 PM
No, Nasu's consistent.

All souls, except for those recorded by the Throne of Heroes or in Avalon, are recycled by Akasha. No ifs, no buts.

Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 03:07:24 PM
In that case, though, what about all the legends that involve people visiting the afterlife?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 03:10:39 PM
They were not afterlifes, since Akasha recycles souls.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 20, 2014, 03:19:12 PM
My suggestion is just rename everyone and turn it into an original fiction that is "inspired" by the Nasuverse. You can even do what you do to canon mechanics to characters. Don't like the way one acts then just go ahead "bend" them as you wish. Add a few crazy new things if you want and then presto you have your own original fic with 100% less people bitching about canon.

Also Lantz you do not bend you break the rules. Dismantle them and replace them because you think yours are better.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 03:26:00 PM
Everyone reasonable take note.

these people are the exact reason I'm unable to change my work. They refuse to respect creative rights and logical response to plot holes. I point out an issue and get denial and sass in return.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 03:30:40 PM
Gray, I think you're missing the point of why Lantz (and others) write fanfiction in the first place. Writing something "inspired by the Nasuverse" is not the same thing as writing with the actual Nasuverse characters. You don't have to like what he is doing, but you absolutely do not have the right to demand that he writes fics on your terms.

Now, I'm going to say it again, if you aren't going to use this thread for the intended purpose, then don't use it at all. Your suggestion has been made multiple times and is not one Lantz is going to accept, ever, so just stop making it. If you have such a fundamental objection to the nature of Lantz's work, then just stay away, because nothing you do or say is ever going to have any effect aside from to annoy people.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 20, 2014, 03:42:25 PM
Okay. You know that you can actually make a fic good and stick to canon right?
I gave a suggestion Mike I think that's what Lantz asks for. Suggestions. It wouldn't take much work change a few character names here, modify the backstory a bit and boom less canon bitching.

Should I treat your work like an original fic that coincidently has canon characters? As while sure you can have those it's just everytime I try to understand how things work in the fic's universe I come with some established Nasuverse lore in my head as a map or rule book. If it was original fic that just so happened to have canon characters it could be less frustrating.

I have asked for narrative reasons Lantz for the things you do. I tried Lantz. I honesty did try.

Here's a question at least.

Q: Does Satoshi gain all the memories and a personality shift upon unifying with the dragon's soul? I know you hate DBZ but he basically fusion danced with a dragon and those fusions tend to have composite personalities with a few things amped up.

Here's a suggestion. It doesn't really seem like does unification as that would imply that his will becomes one with the things he unifies not supersedes it. Could you perhaps change it to "control" or " Command" as that would also better help explain the nature of his reality marble.

Also how are we making it so that you are unable to change your work Lantz? Do you mean diverge it in respect to canon?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 03:46:05 PM
Gray, again, you're missing the point. If Lantz wanted to write original fiction, Lantz would be writing original fiction. He is using the Nasuverse characters because he likes the Nasuverse characters. And, the suggestion you made is one that has been made and dismissed about 5 times already, you're just flogging a dead horse. And, nor is it one which can be compromised on (either it's a Nasuverse fanfic or it's not), so there is nothing constructive about it whatsoever.

As for how you think of Lantz's work, you can treat it however you like. If you want to consider it to be original fiction which has a lot of similarities to the Nasuverse and characters with the same name, then go ahead. Just don't expect Lantz to do the same.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 03:57:37 PM
I do write my own, completely original fiction, I've been world building since the age of seven.

@Gray

A: no, the Dragon's mind is elsewhere.

you are disrespectful to creative right when you assume every change is made because of ignorance or malice.

the reason for changes is plot holes. Plot holes which are outright ignore in favor of angry replies directed toward me. Kat just ignored my plot hole. Hercules went to the underworld and he and Gil are part god. Gods therefore exist and therefore so do the places. As a result we have a discrepancy. I filled it by acknowledging all religious beliefs and cosmological planes.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 04:00:22 PM
Quote
age of seven.

That explains a lot.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 04:02:56 PM
Quote
age of seven.

That explains a lot.

I read "like someone" instead of "since". I remain confident that it was the better of the two.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on May 20, 2014, 04:03:45 PM
No no no, it isn't ignorance we're pissed about, it's that your "patching" of "plot holes" leaves bigger holes, more problems, and then for good measure rapes canon up the ass.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 04:06:37 PM
OK, guys, stop it, now. KAIZA already told you to obey Kuro's rules, and you are not even paying lip service to them right now. And, yes, I am entitled to do this, no-one else is online to handle this and you guys are going way over the line.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 20, 2014, 04:09:47 PM
Q: Is it just a fragment of the soul then in Satoshi? Magic circuits are physical extensions of the soul iirc so are you saying he just gave a few circuits to him? Also you stated earlier that they merge fully when the dragon eventually dies so does the mind still stay seperate then after that and if so how?
I could possibly see something similar to canon like zouken inserting a soul worm in sakura yet still being able to control his body but if it's direct soul to soul graft I'd find that a little hard to buy.

Q: Should we ever discuss Canon in these threads? Are you only using the Nasuverse because you like the characters and not the lore?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 04:14:55 PM
@Gray

A: nope, whole soul

A: discussing canon is fine as long as you are respectful and acknowledge the problems I bring up. Nasuverse is a spotty place canonwise, it's not fully mapped and when I find a hole I plug it. It's not like I make things up for the hell of it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 04:17:04 PM
You don't plug holes. You disregard established canon.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Gray on May 20, 2014, 04:25:20 PM
Yes you do disregard canon not just to fix plotholes. For example the stuff you've done to the Magus Association.

Though I can see that your attempts to patch the mythology and Nasuverse lore are nice it's just the fact that the established canon ussually wins out over the myths. Take for example God Hand instead of ascension to godhood it translated the myth to overcoming of 12 trials due to great durability and some backup lives.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 04:28:53 PM
I filled it by acknowledging all religious beliefs and cosmological planes.
From what I've seen, you've spit on reincarnation and concepts of the soul.

Might I add that "the frig" isn't even nearly as bad as I could have said, and you refused to answer the question.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on May 20, 2014, 04:30:20 PM
Take for example God Hand instead of ascension to godhood it translated the myth to overcoming of 12 trials due to great durability and some backup lives.

I don't think it's ever implied that Heracles did not ascend to godhood at the end of his life, though (the fluff in the game might even say he is, I don't recall). It's just that the part of him recorded in the Throne of Heroes is the human part (as with Rider, who died as a monster).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 04:35:07 PM
Wrong Gray, I stated that the story was written BEFORE CM 3 explained the mage association. Therefore I am not disregarding canon for no reason, further the reason I even concerned myself with the mage association was the over use of western orthodox sorcery in Nasus characters.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 04:38:16 PM
...over use of western orthodox sorcery in Nasus characters.
Q: What do you mean by "western orthodox sorcery"? Keep in mind that sorcery is different from magic and magecraft.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 05:04:54 PM
@Lyco

A: the terms are interchangeable in my head because I've been reading fantasy since I was six. What I mean here is, western magic is weak sauce, in canon older magic is stronger. So why then do so many characters use weak crud? Needing an answer I surmised that the mage association must have been established in Europe and while old was not as old as canon says (again remember canon said nothing at the time I wrote it) the reason why I haven't changed it is because canon just inflames the problem by having a director from the AoG.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 05:09:07 PM
western magic is weak sauce
Q: Where did you get the idea that western magecraft is "weak sauce"?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on May 20, 2014, 05:13:35 PM
Just a friendly reminder, since it seems my last call was not heeded at all...

Please obey the rules of the thread; if you don't like lantz's fics or how he handles the story, just leave and ignore it. If you have an honest question about the story or setting, you can ask politely; and no complaining over the answers, over and over.

I don't want any more problems stirring up here, I've got work to do. Any more of it, and warnings will be handed out.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 05:17:20 PM
@Lyco

A: canon, younger magic is weaker than older magic, thus comparatively it is weak sauce.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on May 20, 2014, 05:18:18 PM
Very well. While I dont agree with you I will respect the fact that you don't want trouble stirring while you're busy. My apologies KAIZA.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kat on May 20, 2014, 05:20:13 PM
Q: Lantz, do you realize you are mistaking Clock Tower for whole Magic Association? The original founders of MA were Sea of Estray and ATLAS, the latter being Egyptian organisation.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Lycodrake on May 20, 2014, 05:39:23 PM
@Lyco
A: canon, younger magic is weaker than older magic, thus comparatively it is weak sauce.
Q: Why does this mean that Western magecraft is weaker than Eastern magecraft? I don't understand at all. MA sees Eastern magecraft as "backwater" and it has never been denied.
I really don't understand.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: qwertyfatcat on May 20, 2014, 05:44:25 PM
Since I was sleeping after Lantz gave me an answer, I'll finally respond to what he said to my questions...

You just danced around my questions. All you really said was that the Dragon needs someone to defend him. You won't even build up the dragon's character, or give a better explanation of your dragon's character.

Q. Why does it feel like it needs to be protected all of a sudden?

Q. If you're writing the dragon's dialogue, what's his personality like? You said that minor characters should have a better spotlight. Could you flesh out your dragon focus?

Q. If you wrote your world from before CM3, why didn't you write your world around it?
 
You could've kept updating your world as Nasu updated his, and establish your world around the loopholes Nasu had to create your world. Hell, Run could still be the head of MA if you create a future event that was plausible enough to allow her to be head of the MA (despite barthemeloi, mega 2k magus, all other competitors for the position).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on May 20, 2014, 05:54:15 PM
@Kat

A: not mistaking, simply unaware at the time of writing it. I'm aware it's bigger than that but the only frame of reference I was given was the clock tower, at the time.

@Lyco

A: compared to the AoG magic lyco

@qwerty

A: dragon killing weapons, also champions do more than protect.

A: he's a firm old man who's more than a little arrogant.

A: Nasu retroactively reshuffles canon, I've done my best to edit but I can't keep up with it. It's like DC reboots overall annoying.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Brahmastra on May 20, 2014, 06:03:04 PM
Wrong Gray, I stated that the story was written BEFORE CM 3 explained the mage association. Therefore I am not disregarding canon for no reason, further the reason I even concerned myself with the mage association was the over use of western orthodox sorcery in Nasus characters.

It doesn't matter if your story predates established canon, it is still in defiance of it.

@Lyco

A: the terms are interchangeable in my head because I've been reading fantasy since I was six. What I mean here is, western magic is weak sauce, in canon older magic is stronger. So why then do so many characters use weak crud? Needing an answer I surmised that the mage association must have been established in Europe and while old was not as old as canon says (again remember canon said nothing at the time I wrote it) the reason why I haven't changed it is because canon just inflames the problem by having a director from the AoG.

The first signs of the MA come from Atlas, which was formerly an order of Egyptian Magi dating back to the earliest Pharaohs (2500BC or earlier).

@Kat

A: compared to the AoG magic lyco

Just because it's from the AoG doesn't mean western AoG magic isn't western.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on May 20, 2014, 06:15:07 PM
Wrong Gray, I stated that the story was written BEFORE CM 3 explained the mage association. Therefore I am not disregarding canon for no reason, further the reason I even concerned myself with the mage association was the over use of western orthodox sorcery in Nasus characters.

It doesn't matter if your story predates established canon, it is still in defiance of it.

@Lyco

A: the terms are interchangeable in my head because I've been reading fantasy since I was six. What I mean here is, western magic is weak sauce, in canon older magic is stronger. So why then do so many characters use weak crud? Needing an answer I surmised that the mage association must have been established in Europe and while old was not as old as canon says (again remember canon said nothing at the time I wrote it) the reason why I haven't changed it is because canon just inflames the problem by having a director from the AoG.

The first signs of the MA come from Atlas, which was formerly an order of Egyptian Magi dating back to the earliest Pharaohs (2500BC or earlier).

@Kat

A: compared to the AoG magic lyco

Just because it's from the AoG doesn't mean western AoG magic isn't western.
Brah, what did I ask for? Please, leave the thread. Now.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 18, 2014, 11:56:22 PM
Thought I'd bring up the details of the story thus far. Anyone notice how Aoko understands the first language as Japanese? Or Shiki being dead for that matter. Or what that chant means since it's not the unlimited blade works?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 19, 2014, 12:06:02 AM
Well, Shiki being dead I remember now you pointed it out again, although I'm not sure how important that is here. It seems like he died in a fight with CM or something. As for Aoko, I'm not sure how the Universal Language is meant to work, or why she would understand it....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 19, 2014, 12:30:34 PM
Wait, aoko can speak the universal language? Da fuk?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 20, 2014, 07:54:19 AM
@Cherry lover

it's not the death that's most important, it's the lack of reaction.

the first language ought to be as Satoshi claimed, painful and nonsensical to modern people.

@Bdoom

no. In the future please read the rules and follow them when using this thread.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 20, 2014, 08:37:06 PM
@Cherry lover

it's not the death that's most important, it's the lack of reaction.

Well, presumably they already know or something....

Quote
the first language ought to be as Satoshi claimed, painful and nonsensical to modern people.

Yeah, but I have absolutely no idea why that might not happen in this case....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 21, 2014, 04:03:52 AM
all I did that fucked up as I can tell is forget the Q, jeez, touchy.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 22, 2014, 11:11:11 PM
@CL

Q: yeah, but why would Aoko ask if she knew he was dead

and yes, not knowing why is the point.

@Bdoom

yes, but given what other users have done in this thread (and your attitude else where) I felt that a reminder of the rules was important.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 27, 2014, 09:37:56 PM
Anyway, as I proposed on bl, I'll be rebooting Satoshi and friends, although the original version will still be produced. The question is who wants to help.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 27, 2014, 10:22:34 PM
What do you mean by "rebooting", and what sort of help are you looking for?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 27, 2014, 11:08:12 PM
Well the new blood seem to have a lot of problems here or there with the character or setting, the point here would to address those creatively and reform the character and setting as a result. The help I'll need will largely depend on the issues brought up. A reboot is a restarting or reimaging of the character and setting. While I want to be open to all concepts let's not change Satoshi in a manner akin to the ultimate marvel universe or the red son superman, the character at his core has to be the same guy.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 05:08:13 PM
Well, sure, but what sort of things do you intend to change? I can't post on BL, so I can't talk to the people on there about any of this....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 06:45:58 PM
The thing is I don't know what needs changing, I'm not the one with the issues. As far as I'm concerned out of date or not to current canon the original version is fine. It's up to other people to tell me how they think he needs changing. Then we can go from there.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 28, 2014, 08:01:16 PM
Lantz, out of date with the canon is something that people get upset about.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 08:26:19 PM
Well, I think that's true to an extent, but I think that people differ quite substantially in terms of how much they care about minor discrepancies with canon, especially obscure canon. If you can make it fit, you should, but I don't think you should destroy an otherwise good story because of some obscure thing in a side-material book.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 28, 2014, 08:30:45 PM
Well, I think that's true to an extent, but I think that people differ quite substantially in terms of how much they care about minor discrepancies with canon, especially obscure canon. If you can make it fit, you should, but I don't think you should destroy an otherwise good story because of some obscure thing in a side-material book.
If he intends for people to enjoy it on bl, it's a fairly big deal. One in particular is gil's vault, it's been clarifyed on and isn't obscure within the type moon community.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 08:33:27 PM
I highly doubt that's a universal sentiment given the comic book industry Bdoom. Nevertheless that is the point of a reboot, to give new readers an in. However asking me to research yet again solely for the benefit of the new crowd is unreasonable. If you guys want him to be in line with the current state of the Nasuverse it's on you to bring the problems for discussion. I'm perfectly fine with he and his chilling in the silver age so to speak.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 08:35:44 PM
I highly doubt that's a universal sentiment given the comic book industry Bdoom. Nevertheless that is the point of a reboot, to give new readers an in. However asking me to research yet again solely for the benefit of the new crowd is unreasonable. If you guys want him to be in line with the current state of the Nasuverse it's on you to bring the problems for discussion. I'm perfectly fine with he and his chilling in the silver age so to speak.

Well, it depends on the level of research, really. But, yes, it's not reasonable to expect you to trawl through the entirety of BL looking for information you've missed, there's just too much of it there.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 28, 2014, 08:36:01 PM
I highly doubt that's a universal sentiment given the comic book industry Bdoom. Nevertheless that is the point of a reboot, to give new readers an in. However asking me to research yet again solely for the benefit of the new crowd is unreasonable. If you guys want him to be in line with the current state of the Nasuverse it's on you to bring the problems for discussion. I'm perfectly fine with he and his chilling in the silver age so to speak.
I'm not asking to research, ask people what the big canon issues are. And also, this isn't the comic book industry, so that's irrelevant. The vault thing is well known on bl.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 28, 2014, 08:37:09 PM
I highly doubt that's a universal sentiment given the comic book industry Bdoom. Nevertheless that is the point of a reboot, to give new readers an in. However asking me to research yet again solely for the benefit of the new crowd is unreasonable. If you guys want him to be in line with the current state of the Nasuverse it's on you to bring the problems for discussion. I'm perfectly fine with he and his chilling in the silver age so to speak.

Well, it depends on the level of research, really. But, yes, it's not reasonable to expect you to trawl through the entirety of BL looking for information you've missed, there's just too much of it there.
Again, he can ask for the information/source in the questions thread, and for the issues he would be looking to clarify he could ask in his Q&A thread.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 08:38:24 PM
I highly doubt that's a universal sentiment given the comic book industry Bdoom. Nevertheless that is the point of a reboot, to give new readers an in. However asking me to research yet again solely for the benefit of the new crowd is unreasonable. If you guys want him to be in line with the current state of the Nasuverse it's on you to bring the problems for discussion. I'm perfectly fine with he and his chilling in the silver age so to speak.
I'm not asking to research, ask people what the big canon issues are. And also, this isn't the comic book industry, so that's irrelevant. The vault thing is well known on bl.

When you say something is "well known" on BL, though, what you mean is that people who post regularly on BL (or in certain parts thereof) know them. Lantz doesn't do that, and I certainly don't (thanks to Altima...), so you can't necessarily expect us to know these things.

Still, if there are problems, then pointing them out makes sense. I don't see why you need to wait for people on BL to do it....

Again, he can ask for the information/source in the questions thread, and for the issues he would be looking to clarify he could ask in his Q&A thread.

He can't ask for information unless he knows what is wrong, and whoever is pointing out what is wrong can also obviously tell him how it is wrong....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 28, 2014, 08:40:17 PM
I've just given him a big, glaring inconstancy.
Quote
He can't ask for information unless he knows what is wrong, and whoever is pointing out what is wrong can also obviously tell him how it is wrong....
Not necessarily, they may know that it's wrong, but not exactly how or where the source is.

In addition, I've seen the source for the GoB one linked multiple times here.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
That's plain ignorance Bdoom, comic book fans deal with revisions all the time, so it's very relevant to the subject at hand. As to Gil's vault, extra is an alternate universe, therefore it does not count. As is apoc. Neither has any bearing on FSN Gilgamesh or his powers.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 28, 2014, 08:44:30 PM
That's plain ignorance Bdoom, comic book fans deal with revisions all the time, so it's very relevant to the subject at hand. As to Gil's vault, extra is an alternate universe, therefore it does not count. As is apoc. Neither has any bearing on FSN Gilgamesh or his powers.
Lantz, it's not relevant because we're not comic book fans(necessarily). We're fan's of a Visual Novel. Extra's servants are all canon, and it's the same gilgamesh as the one in stay night.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 08:50:25 PM
Ok, the only solution I see is to forcefully exodus Gilgamesh from the narrative of the reboot or seal or remove the gate as an ability. There, problem solved.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 28, 2014, 08:51:55 PM
Ok, the only solution I see is to forcefully exodus Gilgamesh from the narrative of the reboot or seal or remove the gate as an ability. There, problem solved.
OR you could modify the narrative to make it work, because isn't that what you said you were doing? Reworking it?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 09:02:55 PM
Reboots don't always include everything from previous versions. To be frank Gilgamesh is a nightmare of a power wanked canon sue at this point. There's no including him in the story because with every bullshit advantage he has the plot will always resolve the same way barring a deus ex machina. Thus for the sake of the overall story he's dead and stays that way. A shame because character wise he's a good element but so it goes.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 09:10:07 PM
Well, Gil is useable, but he's basically only beatable through his own stupidity. I can see Toshi taking him down in the context of a Grail War (because Gil would treat him with contempt), but defeating him when he's wary of what you can do is virtually impossible, yes.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 09:39:09 PM
He's unbeatable given all of Nasu's power ups at this point, without taking away the gate period he's unusable as far as I can see.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on September 28, 2014, 09:42:53 PM
And yet Saber beat him in Fate. And Shirou beat him in UBW. And he got eaten in HF.

Just because Nasu clarified about his abilities and the Gate, it doesn't make him unbeatable. Gil is powerful, yes, but his ego is even more powerful, and thus he can be outsmarted and beaten just fine.

That's usually how it goes with these kinds of characters: not beaten through sheer strength alone, but through wits and ingenuity.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 09:49:52 PM
Yeah, all of that is basically invalid as of the current time. His power boosts make him unbeatable by everything but the shadow at this point. As such there's no way to have him in the story without a massive depowering. He was already a problem for the original Satoshi, depowering Satoshi and then powering up Gilgamesh makes it pointless to include Gilgamesh because any fight will simply result in the same outcome no matter what.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on September 28, 2014, 09:54:25 PM
Except...Gil wasn't powered up. We just got an explanation of his powers. That's it. It's the same ol' Gil as in Fate. He is as OP now as he was then. Hell, Ea alone shows how powerful he is when fighting seriously...and that's the point. He rarely does so. That's the exploit. That's his "de-powering", which is canon.

So, no, you don't have to de-power him.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 10:05:32 PM
Actually he was, those explanations invalidate Avalon, Excalibur, the actually ability for ubw to be a trump card (it's not anymore when you do the math) and even Gilgamesh's fortitude. He went from being powerful but beatable to unkillable because there's no longer a way to take advantage of his ego.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 10:07:13 PM
In what way do the explanations given invalidate any of those things?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 10:23:33 PM
He has items that are the same as Avalon and Excalibur, not copies or originals but items that produce the same effects as powerfully if not more so, having an unlimited number of swords is UBW's one advantage over the gate but that doesn't matter because if Gilgamesh is disarmed the weapons just return to the gate instantly so it can't beat Gilgamesh even conceptually anymore.and apparent CCC added some new crap about his endurance and crap so he's even tougher. And new super phantasms as well. So nothing works anymore. Look I know the ignorant people who never paid attention missed this but in the original version Satoshi had a hell of a time winning a fight. A rebooted Satoshi cannot win and even if Archer, Shirou or Saber could still win it's pointless. That means anytime Gilgamesh is a threat Satoshi will have to be saved by someone, last I checked heroes who are saved by their parents aren't good protagonists even slightly.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on September 28, 2014, 10:31:29 PM
Actually he was, those explanations invalidate Avalon, Excalibur, the actually ability for ubw to be a trump card (it's not anymore when you do the math) and even Gilgamesh's fortitude. He went from being powerful but beatable to unkillable because there's no longer a way to take advantage of his ego.
I think you're misunderstanding something a bit here. Those explanations don't really change much. We already knew Gil was powerful enough to steamroll the competition and win the Grail War by himself. Problem is, if Gil doesn't think you're worthy of his awesomeness, he's not going to fight you at full power. At all. The only exception was in UBW, when Shirou got the upper hand, and Gil was pretty much in a losing situation. And by the time he decided to pull Ea, it was too late.

The only time we see him going all out was against Iskander in Zero. Yes, Gil is pretty much unstoppable if we take everything he has into account. But his ego means that he will almost never fight at full power, so all those skills are a moot point unless he deems his opponent worthy.

Which, given what you've mentioned about Gil and Toshi's relationship, is pretty much guaranteed not too happen.

He has items that are the same as Avalon and Excalibur, not copies or originals but items that produce the same effects as powerfully if not more so, having an unlimited number of swords is UBW's one advantage over the gate but that doesn't matter because if Gilgamesh is disarmed the weapons just return to the gate instantly so it can't beat Gilgamesh even conceptually anymore.and apparent CCC added some new crap about his endurance and crap so he's even tougher. And new super phantasms as well. So nothing works anymore. Look I know the ignorant people who never paid attention missed this but in the original version Satoshi had a hell of a time winning a fight. A rebooted Satoshi cannot win and even if Archer, Shirou or Saber could still win it's pointless. That means anytime Gilgamesh is a threat Satoshi will have to be saved by someone, last I checked heroes who are saved by their parents aren't good protagonists even slightly.
Again, only uses stuff if he deems it worthy. To the point where he only fired four weapons at Caster's giant monster, after Tokiomi begged him to do so. And then refused to get the weapons back because they had been "soiled" by being used on the creature.

And UBW, in theory, doesn't get the weapons back, but produces them fast enough that he can outgun GoB. Again, that's how Shirou beats Gil in UBW.

And again, his endurance and powers are not new. We already now he's THE strongest Servant. His ego still remains as his fatal flaw.

It's true that completely invincible villains are boring. Which is why good OP villains tend to have glaring flaws which can be exploited by the heroes to outsmart them. Gil's is his ego. Learn to use that well, and you can make interesting Gil fights.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 10:32:24 PM
He has items that are the same as Avalon and Excalibur, not copies or originals but items that produce the same effects as powerfully if not more so, having an unlimited number of swords is UBW's one advantage over the gate but that doesn't matter because if Gilgamesh is disarmed the weapons just return to the gate instantly so it can't beat Gilgamesh even conceptually anymore.and apparent CCC added some new crap about his endurance and crap so he's even tougher. And new super phantasms as well. So nothing works anymore. Look I know the ignorant people who never paid attention missed this but in the original version Satoshi had a hell of a time winning a fight. A rebooted Satoshi cannot win and even if Archer, Shirou or Saber could still win it's pointless. That means anytime Gilgamesh is a threat Satoshi will have to be saved by someone, last I checked heroes who are saved by their parents aren't good protagonists even slightly.

Erm, Gil has Ea. Ea is clearly better than Excalibur, so I don't see the issue there. As for him having something like Avalon, that might be true, but it's not really relevant because he never gets the time to use it.

As for Satoshi not being able to beat him, perhaps you're right there. It depends how you write it. But, Saber and Shirou certainly can defeat him, at least in the context of their routes, as can Sakura in HF.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 10:48:19 PM
It's ultimately pointless to include him. There's no way to resolve the issue with the story even if I agree with you two. Satoshi either flops out of every fight looking like a dumb kid or is saved by other people. Neither works as a reasonable compromise because they both sacrifice the hero as believable, capable or competent. You can't power Satoshi down and include Gilgamesh, especially in the original story capacity of stealth teacher because it doesn't pay off anymore
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on September 28, 2014, 10:54:31 PM
Erm, lantz? Instead of either of those two...why not have Satoshi outsmart Gil and/or creatively use the limited resources he'd have to beat him?

Again, use his ego and underestimating attitude to your advantage. Nasu did that.

Sure, Satoshi may fail at first (even heroes can fail at first before succeeding), but then he can learn something new from that experience and use that knowledge to win later.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 11:06:05 PM
Erm, lantz? Instead of either of those two...why not have Satoshi outsmart Gil and/or creatively use the limited resources he'd have to beat him?

Again, use his ego and underestimating attitude to your advantage. Nasu did that.

Sure, Satoshi may fail at first (even heroes can fail at first before succeeding), but then he can learn something new from that experience and use that knowledge to win later.

How do you "outsmart" Gil, though? He seemingly has the ability to just look at someone and work out what they're thinking....

Also, the problem with Gil is that it's difficult to fail at first and succeed later, unless you have something up your sleeve that he's not aware of. Once you've fought him once, he's less likely to underestimate you the next time.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 11:06:25 PM
Outsmarting him is flopping out of the fight. Narratively it only works once anyway. In the original he had ways to beat him that weren't repetitive tricks and, again, one of the major reasons Gilgamesh is even in the story is now impossible to carry forward. So there's literally no point to Gilgamesh being present in the reboot.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 28, 2014, 11:08:23 PM
Outsmarting him is flopping out of the fight. Narratively it only works once anyway. In the original he had ways to beat him that weren't repetitive tricks and, again, one of the major reasons Gilgamesh is even in the story is now impossible to carry forward. So there's literally no point to Gilgamesh being present in the reboot.

Well, why does he need to defeat Gil more than once (or, at least, the same version of him)?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on September 28, 2014, 11:16:21 PM
How do you "outsmart" Gil, though? He seemingly has the ability to just look at someone and work out what they're thinking....

Also, the problem with Gil is that it's difficult to fail at first and succeed later, unless you have something up your sleeve that he's not aware of. Once you've fought him once, he's less likely to underestimate you the next time.
Gil will almost always underestimate you. If you bring out something he doesn't expect, you'll catch him off-guard. And because of his ego, you have a lot of room to work with. Sure, Shirou may not have been trying to outsmart him with UBW, but Gil certainly underestimated the "mongrel", and thus got himself into a corner.

And, well, Gil's supposed to be "endboss" material. You usually don't need more than two confrontations with him to set the point (Too OP, can't beat; suddenly EUREKA moment; rematch using that knowledge and hero wins)

Outsmarting him is flopping out of the fight. Narratively it only works once anyway. In the original he had ways to beat him that weren't repetitive tricks and, again, one of the major reasons Gilgamesh is even in the story is now impossible to carry forward. So there's literally no point to Gilgamesh being present in the reboot.
Um, just pointing out, but even Gil has a limit, and if you constantly beat him, he *will* eventually get desperate enough to pull out a perfect counter. And, if that fails, he will probably rather Ea you rather than having to deal with you anymore. Sure, that may have had to do with his role as stealth teacher as you mentioned, but I'm sure the characters would find Gil's behavior odd, given his attitude I mentioned above.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 11:23:09 PM
That's a major flaw in and of itself, Gilgamesh, the one present in Satoshi's universe can't be tricked into losing. There's no learning possible here. Gilgamesh as he is, is a pointless character as of now. He represents nothing because nothing he did in the original version can pay off. Set him on the shelf and move on to another person guys.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on September 28, 2014, 11:26:35 PM
So, in your AU, Gil is unbeatable because he can't be tricked into losing...despite the fact that canon shows he can, regardless of his power. Lantz, in this case, I think you are giving yourself the limitations on what you can do with Gil, not canon.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 11:34:38 PM
It's basic logic Kaiza, if I bullshited my way to Gilgamesh losing I'd be flamed into oblivion. Gilgamesh knows everything he can do. Therefore, no wildcards, nothing to surprise him with. It's not possible to win here and the foremost reason for the fight is gone.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on September 28, 2014, 11:39:16 PM
Well, technically there is:

*dramatization*
"Oh, what CAN you do with those pathetic powers of yours? Nothing! Hahahaha!"
*uses powers creatively, and since Gil underestimated them, gets caught off-guard*
"Oh noes, it cannot be! Ahhhhhhhh!"
*end dramatization*

Sure, if you bullshitted your way to victory, of course people will complain. Write it correctly and believably, and people won't complain as much. There's a difference between smart writing and ass pulls.
But, well, your choice.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 28, 2014, 11:54:41 PM
No, I meant the actual plot reason for their conflict. It's a superfluous fight.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on September 29, 2014, 06:36:32 AM
Well the new blood seem to have a lot of problems here or there with the character or setting, the point here would to address those creatively and reform the character and setting as a result. The help I'll need will largely depend on the issues brought up. A reboot is a restarting or reimaging of the character and setting. While I want to be open to all concepts let's not change Satoshi in a manner akin to the ultimate marvel universe or the red son superman, the character at his core has to be the same guy.

>The new blood

The only person who I think is even able to put up with him in any fashion other than you is Mike.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 29, 2014, 07:52:40 AM
New blood refers to new fans, not Bdoom in particular.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on September 29, 2014, 06:32:07 PM
Lantz. I'll put this in the nicest way possible.

You do not have fans. You have people who only look at your stuff to mock it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 29, 2014, 09:24:27 PM
I was obviously referring to type moon fans Arch. Now please leave.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 29, 2014, 09:57:47 PM
As of yet, so was he.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on September 29, 2014, 10:12:50 PM
He said that Lantz doesn't have any fans, so he was obviously referring to Lantz there....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on September 29, 2014, 10:16:00 PM
fans=type moon community
lantz=lantz
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on September 29, 2014, 11:38:58 PM
Bdoom, if you aren't going to follow the rules and be constructive then please leave. These jabs at me are not welcome, in fact they violate the rules of the thread. I don't think a reboot is required for the character or setting. The idea was brought up to be inclusive to people like yourself who are new fans. Please use the subject at hand properly from now on instead of as a platform for these attacks.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on October 01, 2014, 06:41:27 AM
Reboot?

I'm willing to contribute, I actually have a suggestion regarding Gil that might work, give me a bit to work it out.

By work it out I mean sleep, I just looked over here as I was preparing to log off for the night.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 01, 2014, 04:58:39 PM
Welcome back Kuro, you should check out the RP ideas thread, we're talking about an smt RP.

as to the reboot, I'd love to hear your idea but as it stands the fans seem to think Gilgamesh is unbeatable period so I'm not sure if they'll accept your opinion on the subject. Still, post it all the same.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 01, 2014, 05:23:35 PM
No, fans don't think Gil is unbeatable. The VN shows him being defeated three times, and everyone I've seen has been arguing he can be defeated. What you can't do is make a character who is more powerful than him in general, who can beat him by sheer force. However, as you constantly argue whenever powerlevels are brought up, being more powerful does not mean automatic victory. Gil's ego gets in the way, and a clever character can use that to defeat him.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 05:55:25 PM
What cherry is saying, we complain because the way you have had satoshi beat gil in the past doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 01, 2014, 06:06:46 PM
It wasn't Satoshi Bdoom. Regardless I'm sorry but you are all far too unfair. Gilgamesh can only be defeated by surprise or skill, the situation was one where Satoshi's origin assisted said surprise. Gilgamesh was thereby sucker punched. It makes sense. All you do is block out the only way he can be beaten and then shit on me when I tell the truth.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
Well satoshi's origin mergeing was kind of completely unrealistic too.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 01, 2014, 08:03:36 PM
His origin was developed as a matter of the course. His soul is broken, as such it needs to be repaired and recollected. Thus his origin Unification and Restoration. The fact that it causes OCD and masks his form and presence as a human are side effects as is his ability to adapt techniques and use weapons which can't be used.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 08:55:36 PM
Lantz, the soul breaking in the first place doesn't make an ounce of sense in nasu canon, they're kind of immutable, from my understanding.
Quote from: seikadoc
Your soul is immortal. Attaching your soul to a body causes it to decay. Heaven's Feel(the third magic) is awesome because it materialises the soul directly, bypassing the need for a body, thus making you immortal.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on October 01, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
Well Serious Gil is unbeatable. Standard Gil is an idiot who will get caught by the lamest kinds of tricks if the plot needs him to.

Think of it as a reverse instinct, instead of being saved by the plot at the last second like with instinct, he fucks up and forgets or fails to notice something important at the worst moment because he isn't paying attention, then he dies.

It is best to treat him as two separate characters.

Anyway my Idea is to have Gil mostly not be antagonistic (There are ways) so that Satoshi will not need to beat him (One rarely needs to defeat allies and neutral parties), I am still thinking it out along with several other ideas so I will try to post my current ideas all at once.

Origins actually come before the soul and permeate every particle that makes one up. It is the unspoken, absolute direction of an entire existance that drives a being to exist in the first place. Realistically his origin would likely change to match or complement the dragon even if it actively prevented soul crushing. I have an idea about the dragon too.

I have lots of Ideas, be ready.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 10:13:31 PM
the soul merging is kind of impossible though. And even if it was, Satoshi would cease to exist, the dragon's existence is far more powerful than satoshi could be. The dragon's soul would simply overwrite Satoshi's.
Quote from: Seikadoc
- /To be fair, it says they're immortal, not invulnerable. I presume that a materialized soul can be damaged in similar ways to how a body might. Though since it's a soul maybe it's more along the lines of how you can harm a Heroic Spirit?/
I would say no. If you want to get specific, when done right, the end result of the Third is supposed to be "不老不死", i.e. eternal youth and immortality. The phrasing is pretty explicit.
The result of a true Third would be some sort of permanent inert indestructible entity that has infinite mana. Pretty god-like.
Servants are a form of limited application of the Third.

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-(read-the-bloody-OP)/page2023?p=961841#post961841 (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-(read-the-bloody-OP)/page2023?p=961841#post961841)
Quote from: seikadoc
The soul shapes the body. As long as your soul is in pristine condition, it can shape an amorphous blob of a puppet body into the correct shape.

Zouken is disintegrating because his soul had decayed over the 500 years, so even when he moves into a new body, the body will disintegrate right to the extent of his soul.

The reason Saber was not transformed into a dragon is because her soul isn't merged or anything with a dragon, it literally just lives inside her magic core.
Quote from: seikadoc
- So this "Dragon Factor" thing we have been discussing, it's not dragon soul, dragon genes, or dragon blood.
It's this "dragon" that lives in the middle of this "magical core", and it's powering Sabre and her Mana Burst.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 01, 2014, 10:14:54 PM
@Bdoom

Ok then, but how, if the soul only gets recycled does the entire afterlife structure work? Dozens of heroes visit after lives of their respective religions. If those places don't exist dozens of tales (including Hercules, Medea and Rider) are false, especially Rider's.

@Kuro

if not for his origin he would have been swallowed by the dragon, that's why they changed it.

in the original Gilgamesh specifically became a target to make Satoshi a hero. He decided that Satoshi, like any person ought to have the right to choose his own destiny. And not to be led about by a bunch of conniving magi.

without this element to Gilgamesh he doesn't belong in the story period.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 10:28:25 PM
@Bdoom

Ok then, but how, if the soul only gets recycled does the entire afterlife structure work? Dozens of heroes visit after lives of their respective religions. If those places don't exist dozens of tales (including Hercules, Medea and Rider) are false, especially Rider's.

@Kuro

if not for his origin he would have been swallowed by the dragon, that's why they changed it.

in the original Gilgamesh specifically became a target to make Satoshi a hero. He decided that Satoshi, like any person ought to have the right to choose his own destiny. And not to be led about by a bunch of conniving magi.

without this element to Gilgamesh he doesn't belong in the story period.
Lantz, first read my edits, I added alot of relevant info for that topic.
Quote
If those places don't exist dozens of tales (including Hercules, Medea and Rider) are false, especially Rider's.
All three of these specificly are ficticious heros.
Quote from: seikadoc
Birth of Heroic Spirits
It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are legendary heroes. Also, Emiya and Altria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world. Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.
and lantz, a dragon's soul would infalibly overwrite the soul of anyone unlucky enough to merge with it's soul, regardless of origin. They're just far too mysterious and powerful for anything else, even the weakest of them.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 01, 2014, 10:50:37 PM
No, Hercules is not Bdoom. Kojiro is fictitious, Hercules is not imaginary in the Nasuverse. Yes, a dragon would, except that his origin prevents that and reverses the direction of the assimilation. For that matter answer the questions yourself instead of diverting them or parroting others. Especially when they are wrong (Archer is hero because of his deal, not because of renown) you can't just have a dragon. So that bit about Saber is flawed.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 10:52:48 PM
Lantz, I literally sourced my statement. Herakles is on the throne because many people worshipped him, and believed in his existence. Kojiro is not because he's just a nameless farmer.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 10:53:48 PM
No, Hercules is not Bdoom. Kojiro is fictitious, Hercules is not imaginary in the Nasuverse. Yes, a dragon would, except that his origin prevents that and reverses the direction of the assimilation. For that matter answer the questions yourself instead of diverting them or parroting others. Especially when they are wrong (Archer is hero because of his deal, not because of renown) you can't just have a dragon. So that bit about Saber is flawed.
Parroting them? How am I parroting questions?
Quote
So that bit about Saber is flawed.
Source your information then, I've brought mine.

Also about satoshi's origin. Can you provide a nasuey enough explaination for why his origin does this?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 01, 2014, 10:58:25 PM
Lantz, I literally sourced my statement. Herakles is on the throne because many people worshipped him, and believed in his existence. Kojiro is not because he's just a nameless farmer.

Where does this come from, BTW? Because it sounds like either a misinterpretation or else just some bullshit Nasu made up on the spot that makes no damn sense....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 11:00:05 PM
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1NEZzQsil7Zgkajr6ESYIoW1JNN6aeBuG4kE2SZWghXw#h.6vct55x3y432
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 01, 2014, 11:09:36 PM
Kojiro's real identity has never been stated. It was speculated to be a farmer given the period.

Archer flat-out stated his state as a heroic spirit is because of his contract with the world, not anything he did.

you keep quoting Seika, not reasoning out an answer, I don't want someone else's interpretation spat at me, I asked you the question Bdoom, not her.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 01, 2014, 11:13:29 PM
Kojiro's real identity has never been stated. It was speculated to be a farmer given the period.

Archer flat-out stated his state as a heroic spirit is because of his contract with the world, not anything he did.

you keep quoting Seika, not reasoning out an answer, I don't want someone else's interpretation spat at me, I asked you the question Bdoom, not her.
This isn't seika's thoughts. the seika doc is just a large compilation of forum sources. it's literally just called that because she complied it.
Quote from: seikadoc
False Assassin

- 純粋な剣技のみで言えば、今回の聖杯戦争中最高のサーヴァントである。
Also, since this came up a few days back.
"In terms of pure swordsmanship, Assassin is the greatest among the Servants of this Holy Grail War."
(Forum Source)
- /Tsubame Gaeshi is the skill on the level of Noble Phantasms. Sasaki doesn't imbue the power of Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon into each and every strike (although if he did, that would be all sorts of awesome)./
その果てにサーヴァントの宝具が備える神秘と互角の剣技を得るに至った。
Oh, dear. It doesn't seem to be talking about Tsubame Gaeshi. It seems to be talking about his sword technique in general. Tsubame Gaeshi is just sort of the culmination of all that.
(Forum Source)
[Seika trans. ~ In the end, he has gained skill with the sword equal in mystery to that of a Servant's Noble Phantasm. (Very roughly)]
-No, see, you're not really getting it. We all know Sasaki has no NP, but what's reached that level is "his skill with the sword". Tsubame Gaeshi is his best technique, but it's more or less just an expression of that transcendent skill.
(Forum Source)
- The problem with Kojiro is more complicated.
If you look at the ye olde Fate Side Material, Type Moon already made margins for imaginary heroes.
Nasu explained in the CM2 interview that he wanted Assassin to reflect the changes that have occurred between the conception of Fate and Fate/Stay Night. For Hercules, even if he is imaginary, at least we are certain there is one Hercules. Nasu apparently found through his own research that, Kojiro may have existed, and he may have not, and there may have been even three separated Kojiros. Even the legends are not at all in concord.                                                 
(Forum Source)
- /Nasu: ...If there were a database for humanity, then Assassin was the piece of data that matched the parameters of Kojiro Sasaki. As a result, Assassin's personality would become Kojiro's personality, and Assassin's monumental feats would become that of Kojiro's rather than his.../
Nameless Farmer happened to more or less sync up with Kojiro, so he got fitted into the role. This in turn added all of Nameless Farmer's skills to Kojiro's.
(Forum Source)                                                                                         
I'm sourcing it because it's a convient repository for canon information.
also about archer:
Quote
Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death.
I'd like an apology for the accusatory words.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 01, 2014, 11:28:49 PM
I saw none of that in the original post. Excuse the technical error. As for the rest, like usual Nasu didn't think, he destroyed what was an effective and cool setting. However now everyone is fake and magic might as well be crap for how much sense it makes. There's no point in a reboot when the characters have to be a bunch of nihilistic failures and any real conclusion hampered by stupid exceptions and rules.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 12:21:47 AM
Lantz, there's no reason you can't have medusa, medea, or herakles given flesh(from a them being fake standpoint). Medusa stayed after hf true.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 12:22:23 AM
and do you mean magic or sorcery?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 12:24:19 AM
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1NEZzQsil7Zgkajr6ESYIoW1JNN6aeBuG4kE2SZWghXw#h.sqtah5nldnjw

Here, just read this for starters.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 12:44:59 AM
If they are fake then the locations and events are false, as a result they lose meaning in the world at large, once the world shrinks they lose their place and their reason for being there.

as usual I have to remind you of the google tech issue I have.

and I meant magic as a whole.

the world is basically the ultimates universe now. Nothing is recoverable to make a reboot from.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 12:49:01 AM
Sorry, forgot about the google thing. They're not fake in the same way kojirou is.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 12:51:05 AM
And lantz, can you explain how this makes a reboot literally impossible?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 12:52:53 AM
And lantz, can you explain how this makes a reboot literally impossible?

Not "impossible", as such, he just dislikes the new information enough that he doesn't desire to do one (and, honestly, I'm inclined to agree about the "fake" thing, I don't like it at all and think it makes no sense).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 12:53:42 AM
Well that's not impossible, he just doesn't like it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 12:54:17 AM
Which is fine, also, he's free to ingore as much or as little of the new canon as he wants.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 01:02:56 AM
No, it's functionally impossible with the new information. None of the characters are meaningful in the story, Iris and Kiritsugu can't come back, no doubt illya can't be saved. Basically it becomes dull. And no, a reboot that conforms to canon cannot ignore canon. Especially given the fan base.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 01:17:08 AM
On that last bit, it depends. Suspension of disbelief is a thing for a reason.

There are some breaks from canon that most people can forgive because otherwise they'd be too constrictive (like the "Shirou can only summon Arturia" thing), but for the most part, it depends on how much from canon you break, and for what purpose.

It also depends on how good the story is; the better the story, the more likely people are to overlook certain breaks for the sake of a good story. The opposite is also true; in a bad story, ALL of the problems and breaks are magnified and become glaring, and not even adhering to canon to a T can help there.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 01:26:57 AM
No, it's functionally impossible with the new information. None of the characters are meaningful in the story, Iris and Kiritsugu can't come back, no doubt illya can't be saved. Basically it becomes dull.

Where do you get "Ilya can't be saved" from? And, I'm not entirely sure how you managed to bring Iri and Kiritsugu back in the first place....

Quote
And no, a reboot that conforms to canon cannot ignore canon. Especially given the fan base.

I doubt most of the fandom is really bothered about the whole "Medusa is fake" thing, particularly since there is zero reason for it to ever even come up in a fic. It is entirely possible to ignore some aspects of canon and still conform to the majority and, indeed, with something like the Nasuverse (where canon is often self-contradictory) it is almost essential to do so.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 01:33:52 AM
@Kaiza

I'd love to believe you but there's no way to reboot this story with a positive result except to obey canon because the fan base has a toxic view of my ocs. No matter what I do they won't except it.

@CL

in canon she dies, thanks to the new canon there's no way to save her.

as for Kiritsugu and Iri the method used falls flat in the new canon.

the cast shrinks, the story becomes impossible to be interesting or exceed three chapters.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 01:42:00 AM
@CL

in canon she dies, thanks to the new canon there's no way to save her.

Honestly, I don't even believe that she's certain to die in canon. I see no reason to assume she cannot be saved.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 01:48:45 AM
@Kaiza

I'd love to believe you but there's no way to reboot this story with a positive result except to obey canon because the fan base has a toxic view of my ocs. No matter what I do they won't except it.

@CL

in canon she dies, thanks to the new canon there's no way to save her.

as for Kiritsugu and Iri the method used falls flat in the new canon.

the cast shrinks, the story becomes impossible to be interesting or exceed three chapters.
You want Illya to live properly rather than limited homunculus life? Fine by me. You want Kerry and Iri to come back to life? Alright, try it, even if that's stretching it.

One condition though: You have to give a very good reason for it; a believably explanation that fits with the setting and doesn't break our SoD. The more you break, the more you need to explain to make it work, and the more effort you need to put into the writing so that people can give it a pass. Doubly so when such things are fundamental to the story.

If people hated the story so far, it's because you're doing one or both of those two things wrong.

Lantz, you'd have a lot less problems if you used the setting and stuff to your advantage; seeing them as tools instead of just as arbitrary limitations.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 01:57:47 AM
Illya can live, she's there in hollow. And as far as I know your herk and medusa didn't violate them being fake ever, it's meaningless info to 90% of fics.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 01:59:25 AM
And exactly what Kaiza said. Instead of being constrained by canon, find creative ways to make it work instead.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 02:02:17 AM
Sorry but they've not given it a chance. They won't give me a chance even if you would, any break from canon causes them to shit on me. This is fact. The current canon and attitude of the fandom gives me no advantage. I cannot work the current details into a reboot and frankly I don't want to write some grim dark pile of crap. The original version is a better story period and I don't care how out of date the details are.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 02:03:25 AM
To give an example:
Let's say I want to write a story. I decide to write a light-hearted, fluff fic; the premise being Kerry, Iri, Shirou and Illya spending some fun happy times watching the cherry blossoms bloom. Maybe include some in-jokes based on the source material, perhaps a few cameos by other characters here and there.

Is it breaking canon? Yes, of course it is. Does it matter? Well, if the story is good enough...no. Not really. Do I need to explain why Kerry and Iri are alive, and are having happy times despite what happens in the source material...no, not really.

Because that is not fundamental to what the fic is. It's just a small fluff story. So as long as I state it's a what-if/AU story, and make my best effort to write everything properly, people are very likely to overlook the fact that some of the characters in it are supposed to be dead, or that the situation in itself is not possible in the actual source material. I could include a small aside hand-waving it or something, but it doesn't need the explanation. People already enjoy the story enough to give it a pass.

Your story, on the other hand...needs the explanation.

Because due to what your story is, and how it's supposed to go, it needs an actual explanation to why it happens. It follows an established setting, so it needs to be explained within the setting, and the explanation needs to make sense so as to not break SoD. Otherwise, you have a plothole or an asspull.

Even if the setting is explicitly AU, you'd still need the explanation, because it's fundamental to the working of your story (and if it isn't, why break so much just to have them revived in the first place?).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 02:06:21 AM
Or post it on ffn, they'd love it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on October 02, 2014, 02:24:40 AM
Okay do not give up this quickly, some of the plot points will have to be adjusted to better fit with canon, but that is the last reason to give up. I am here with as many suggestions as you will ever need, you just have to actually use some of them. I am here to help.

So I am going to start listing off ideas based on what I know in order:

1. You are going to have to give up on Iri (Physically at least) but if you are planning a grail war six I have an interpretation of Kerry's backstory that might let you get him in. Let me know if you are interested.

2. Dying Illya, Altria is still there right? So Avalon still works, stick it in Illya. With no heroes in the grail to degrade her body the sheath should fix her up well enough that she won't need it anymore by the time it is needed for anything else. No adult Illya though.

More to come.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 02:25:51 AM
And justaze shouldn't exist
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 03:24:10 AM
@Kaiza

I'm willing to explain but frankly that doesn't matter. They won't let it happen unless I explain immediately, instant gratification is not how stories fucking work. I cannot have an suspense when the readers act like six year olds.

@kuro

sorry but when a world goes dark grey I tend to stop caring.

no point in Kerry without Iri and Ilya can't be saved that way because of the time gap.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 03:29:34 AM
Lantz, you kind of do need to explain when you're breaking canon why you're breaking canon.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 03:39:40 AM
Lantz, you kind of do need to explain when you're breaking canon why you're breaking canon.

Yes, ultimately, but not necessarily in chapter 1....

Any good story is going to have elements that don't immediately make sense, otherwise there's no suspense.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 03:44:34 AM
But if said elements break SoD, you need to explain why you're breaking them asap.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 03:45:41 AM
But if said elements break SoD, you need to explain why you're breaking them asap.

That's not always possible, though, not when you're doing a setting like Lantz's (i.e. some time in the future). You can't necessarily explain everything straight away, the story would be extremely dull if you do.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 03:45:49 AM
It's not good to go "it will be explained in 40 chapters" because people aren't going to wait years to find out why something potentially isn't shitty after all.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 03:46:40 AM
But if said elements break SoD, you need to explain why you're breaking them asap.

That's not always possible, though, not when you're doing a setting like Lantz's (i.e. some time in the future). You can't necessarily explain everything straight away, the story would be extremely dull if you do.
Being dull is better than shattering suspension of disbelief permanently.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 03:56:04 AM
But if said elements break SoD, you need to explain why you're breaking them asap.

That's not always possible, though, not when you're doing a setting like Lantz's (i.e. some time in the future). You can't necessarily explain everything straight away, the story would be extremely dull if you do.
Being dull is better than shattering suspension of disbelief permanently.

No, it's not.

Dullness is the one thing that is absolutely guaranteed to kill a story. People will forgive a lot of things, even outright breaking suspension of disbelief, but they are not going to read a story that is dull. Sure, you might get less crap from people like Arch doing it that way, but you sure as hell won't produce a story that absolutely anyone wants to read.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 03:56:15 AM
It's a time travel story, mystery is key. But in any case, Bdoom or "Sakura" here is a perfect example of why this reboot cannot work.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:07:04 AM
But if said elements break SoD, you need to explain why you're breaking them asap.

That's not always possible, though, not when you're doing a setting like Lantz's (i.e. some time in the future). You can't necessarily explain everything straight away, the story would be extremely dull if you do.
Being dull is better than shattering suspension of disbelief permanently.

No, it's not.

Dullness is the one thing that is absolutely guaranteed to kill a story. People will forgive a lot of things, even outright breaking suspension of disbelief, but they are not going to read a story that is dull. Sure, you might get less crap from people like Arch doing it that way, but you sure as hell won't produce a story that absolutely anyone wants to read.
I can't think of anybody who would read 40 chapters to find out why something shattered their sod.
It's a time travel story, mystery is key. But in any case, Bdoom or "Sakura" here is a perfect example of why this reboot cannot work.
how.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on October 02, 2014, 04:07:51 AM
What time gap and how much of one?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:09:04 AM
Just because I probably won't read it doesn't mean other people won't. And again, FFN is unironically a good place for your fic.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:11:20 AM
If you don't change it, fine. That's your choice, and I respect that. Just don't act surprised if people continue disliking it if you don't change anything.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 04:13:54 AM
I can't think of anybody who would read 40 chapters to find out why something shattered their sod.

Perhaps, but I think that shattering suspension of disbelief is probably more subjective than being dull is. Especially when it comes to fanfiction.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:18:13 AM
I can't think of anybody who would read 40 chapters to find out why something shattered their sod.

Perhaps, but I think that shattering suspension of disbelief is probably more subjective than being dull is. Especially when it comes to fanfiction.
I'm going from the fact that nobody on bl really likes his fic currently, the only reason his Q&A thread there is active is because Blers are drawn like flys to drama. And if he released it all at once, that would be one thing. But if he expects people to have continued interest in following a fic that consistently breaks suspension of disbelief, and by the authors word, won't start explaining why until around chapter 40, and won't just drop it, he's out of his mind.
40 chapters would probably take years to get to, and that's when the plot starts getting into gear? You'd be hard pressed to find somebody who would stick with it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 04:25:07 AM
It was requested by Kaiza as a point that I establish the world at large, that is why it's in chronological order and thus slowly revealing instead of establishing things in a different order which would make the suspension easier in general. Forty chapters is because of all the history that needs to be covered.

@Kuro

doesn't matter, there's no way to know she needs help before it's too late, besides that, Satoshi is far too different to reasonably be the same character with all the absences.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:27:03 AM
Q:You didn't think satoshi would have to be modified at all when you decided to change the setting somewhat?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 04:30:31 AM
@Bdoom

A: powers yes, personality no. Personality is key to a character.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:32:30 AM
He can't develop differently but still be the same guy, at his core?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 04:39:03 AM
I think the problem here is that you're mistaking "setting up a mystery" with "failure to establish a setting". The latter is the problem.
You can set up a mystery, or something suspenseful, that is discovered as the story goes on. However, before you do that, you have to establish the setting, so that we can understand what's going on.

This goes double for a fanfic, since you're working with an established setting, and the audience will be expecting that. And before you say "Oh, but then every story can only be a repeat Grail War" or something; that's not true. At all. So as long as you properly establish that the story is in the Nasuverse, you can have a magus from the Association fighting vampires on the other side of the world for all I care.

Let's just look at the first chapter as an example. Remember, first chapters are supposed to hook readers, catch their attention, even for a bit.
You start OK-ish, with some familiar names and setting up a mystery for the plot later. However, we have no idea what's going on. Normally, you set up the setting, so that we can have some basic understanding, then set up a mystery upon that setting.

Though, no bigie. You can still set up a mystery without us knowing what is going on about it IF we can have something understandable as a crutch. Say, introduce a mystery with Unknown Villain X in a flashback, but then continue to a scene with Shirou in the present. We know Shirou, and even if we go AU, this moment establishes the setting and helps us understand it, even if the previous scene made no sense to us.

And here comes the problem; the very next scene makes no sense to us. We don't know what the hell is going on, a lot of the characters we don't even know who they are, or what relationship they have; we have nothing. Nothing to cling to for understanding. This is the main problem we have here: you've failed to establish the setting. We have no idea what's going on, and we don't even have something to act as an anchor, so we lose interest and don't care about it.

It's not that what happens is absurd; it's that we have no connection to what's happening. If in the previous example I had Shirou suddenly pretending he's a superhero, silly costume and all, at the very least, if I work properly in his characterization, we have a connection to the setting there, even if it's absurd. But we don't have that here. And because of that, the hook fails.

And this isn't even taking into account the amount of SoD breaking.

That's the issue we have here. You can have your mystery if you want, but you need to set up the setting properly so that we actually care about that mystery. You can't expect us to wait 40 chapters just for that; nobody's gonna wait that long. People tend to at most give a story three to five chapters before dropping it. Some even less.

Without establishing setting, we will keep questioning everything we see, because it isn't familiar to us. It looks nonsensical, arbitrary. For example, several dead characters are now alive, and Servants now have physical bodies. Why? Is it part of the mystery? If so, why aren't we focusing on that? It's related to what we know, and it's obviously different from the established canon. So, of course, we're gonna want answers about that. But, nope; let's have space wrestling matches; that's obviously more important to establish than the differences in this setting from what we know.

So, no; don't confuse adding mystery and suspense with establishing your setting.

Also, by the way, don't use the multiverse thing as an excuse. Yes, the Nasuverse follows the idea of a multi-verse. But the Nasuverse already has some rules set in stone, which will never change no matter which universe it is. Because they are all the same universe; a different universe will not differ in how it works, it'll differ in how things happen.

Characters taking different choices, being born with different abilities, unto different families, different times and action...all of those factors can change, but they all still respect the universal laws set there. Magic will still be the same in one universe or the other, even if in one universe Shirou uses swords, and in another he uses lances. And every change has causes and effects, which HAVE to be taken into account.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 04:39:49 AM
No, who he becomes is based on that childhood. Without it he wouldn't be the same.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:46:09 AM
Then go and reread kaiza's post. You can start with something establishing the setting. After all, the basic rules shouldn't be part of the mystery.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 04:46:21 AM
At this point Kaiza I don't care, no one ever gave me a chance and I'm sick of changing the damn story, so think what you want but from now on I don't care. Fuck this, reboot sucks, not doing it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:48:23 AM
Lantz asks for people's advice
People give lantz advice
Lantz ragequits because he has to change the chronology a bit
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on October 02, 2014, 04:49:25 AM
Illya knows she is going to die even before the war. Even if Altria goes poof and takes a few years to come back, you can say that Illya managed to stay alive somehow till Altria got back with the sheath. All you need is a how. I will literally give you ideas if you can't think of a way to make it work.

He is an OC, his personality is whatever you want it to be so if you want him to be the same basic character even with some events going differently, something that is unavoidable in a reboot, he will be the same character.

----

Reads all the new posts...

Goddamn it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:52:45 AM
Kuro: you didn't expect this?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 04:55:27 AM
@Bdoom

stop talking and leave please. You know nothing about the works history and your constant jabs are unwelcome.

@Kuro

no, OC's are not liquid metal, I can't have him develop the same way without the same environment. One maybe two people could be beared but not his grandparents and aunt.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: The Man With All The Cute Boats on October 02, 2014, 04:57:36 AM
At this point Kaiza I don't care, no one ever gave me a chance and I'm sick of changing the damn story, so think what you want but from now on I don't care. Fuck this, reboot sucks, not doing it.
Considering the amount of people who actually read your stuff, a lot of people have given you a chance (through reading your stuff).

So, literally, dismount from thy high, high horse.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 05:00:32 AM
Lantz, I'd recommend cooling down.

You asked for advice, we gave you advice within our capabilities. You want it, you take it, you don't, that's fine. But, if you want to take the risk, you have to take it with everything involved. Including people not liking or caring about your fic.

And that's all I'm going to say for now. Since this isn't going anywhere, I recommend all of us just drop this discussion now. It probably won't end up healthy for those involved.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 05:01:36 AM
Yeah, I'm fine with dropping it, I never expected anything different.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 05:02:50 AM
@Names

no, I've dealt with data loss trolls and four versions of the story based on feedback for which I'm called an asshole who doesn't take criticism. I'm done with trying to be fair.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Kurogami on October 02, 2014, 05:11:21 AM
Said aunt I still refuse to accept as a lost cause.

The only way her death becomes absolutely certain is if you, the writer, want her to die. She lasts a year IIRC without any help, so with help there should be a way to keep her alive two or three more, so the question is just how long is Saber gone?

----

And with that I am done, If you are serious about quitting then do not waste the time typing a reply it will just keep things going.

And as a suggestion, you should in the future question if you are willing to continue no matter the opposition before starting a project.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: The Man With All The Cute Boats on October 02, 2014, 05:11:54 AM
That doesn't refute my point. I'm not saying you're unfair, I'm saying you've been given chances unlike what you claim, and you need to stop being so full of yourself.

Basically stop lying to yourself.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 05:12:12 AM
Q: if we're not doing critisism anymore, should we lock all the Q&A threads?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 05:18:51 AM
@Names

I don't believe you.

@Kuro

it was a nice thought but the current conclusion is that the character of Satoshi isn't the same, thus the reboot isn't possible. If you have a way to inspire unshakeable hope in people and a peaceful world were no one has to die then shoot. Otherwise the reboot is impossible.

@Bdoom

A: not up to you, stop pushing for it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 05:24:00 AM
But you just said fuck all the critisism, fuck it all, so what's the point?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 05:25:30 AM
Just leave it be, Bdoom. Please. For your own sake.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 05:29:51 AM
I'm willing to still deal with Questions and answers, further discussion is still valid. Telling me to rewrite the work for the fifth (technically sixth) time without considering how much time and effort is wasted is however rude. As is assuming that reading a work is the same as giving it a chance.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 03:51:53 PM
It's a time travel story in the multiverse. Since this clearly isn't obvious the rules of the setting are largely transient. All three of the first chapters are (strange as they may seem) actually integral to the plot. If they sour the reader fine but as far as I'm concerned they didn't give it a chance because you can't know a story is bad till you get to the end.

I can't simplify a story like this anymore than I already have.

the reboot doesn't work because the characters aren't the same. And the original isn't worth discussing when no one acknowledges how fucking hard it is. No one even knows who the final boss is or why.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 04:07:14 PM
All three of the first chapters are (strange as they may seem) actually integral to the plot. If they sour the reader fine but as far as I'm concerned they didn't give it a chance because you can't know a story is bad till you get to the end.

The thing is, though, whilst you're right that no-one can know for sure if a story is bad from the first chapter, they also can't be sure that it will end up being good. So, if the first few chapters turn them off, then they're likely to just stop reading. That's not exclusive to you, it applies to every author in existence.

Quote
And the original isn't worth discussing when no one acknowledges how fucking hard it is.

How hard what is...?

Quote
No one even knows who the final boss is or why.

No, because you've never told us, and if you did it would most likely ruin the story.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:11:16 PM
If you want to post each chapter as you finish it you need to expect people to judge it oon what they see and know now. I'm not going to wait years for something to finish before I can call it good or bad, and you shouldn't expect anyone else to either. Don't act like we're targeting you specificly with this, everyone else writing fanfics gets scrutinized as they go too.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 04:33:08 PM
@Bdoom

No, sorry. The wealth of incidents where people have directly targeted me prove you wrong

@CL

Well then people miss out. I never judge things until I've finished them.

how hard it is to research, formulate and execute a story this big.

and yeah, if I explained the twists it would wreck the story, however everyone else seems to think opposite.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:37:53 PM
Lantz, They don't. I can tell you exactly why your Q&A gets so many posts. It's becuase of the way you react to people posting their criticism. You get super defensive about it, and it turns into a shouting fest. If anyone else acted the way you do twords critisism, they'd get the exact same treatment.

Quote
and yeah, if I explained the twists it would wreck the story, however everyone else seems to think opposite.
Setting=/=Twists
Quote
Well then people miss out. I never judge things until I've finished them.
That's not how fanfic critisism works.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:43:44 PM
Quote
how hard it is to research, formulate and execute a story this big.
Also, I'm not going to say this fic is bad, but the author worked hard on it, so A+. Fuck that, I'm going to judge it on the content, not the effort put into it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 04:53:06 PM
@Bdoom

false, during my depression I got defense. Currently I'm trying to be inquisitive to understand feedback. My frustration seen comes from no one listening when I tell them they've failed to make sense and then insulting me for wanting a better explained answer.

you aren't basing it on the content because you, like everyone else are using material other than the work to judge it.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 04:55:54 PM
@Bdoom

false, during my depression I got defensive. Currently I'm trying to be inquisitive in order to understand feedback. The frustration I've shown comes from no one listening when I tell them they've failed to make sense and then insulting me for wanting a better explained answer.
You don't take critisism if your responce is more than half the time to wait until you've finished the story to judge.
Quote
you aren't basing it on the content because you, like everyone else are using material other than the work to judge it.
false, I'm judging it on it's own merits, or lackthereof.
It never hooked me, I don't know or care about Satoshi and his friends, I don't see any reason to continue reading what appears to be just another OC heavy fanfic.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 05:36:42 PM
You don't take critisism if your responce is more than half the time to wait until you've finished the story to judge.

If the story explains it at a later point, then that is not an invalid response. You can't expect him to explain the entire story in chapter one.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 05:49:26 PM
Again, don't confuse "spoiling the mystery" with "establishing the setting".
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 05:52:33 PM
You don't take critisism if your responce is more than half the time to wait until you've finished the story to judge.

If the story explains it at a later point, then that is not an invalid response. You can't expect him to explain the entire story in chapter one.
He can't expect that answer to satisfy anyone either. Especially when ORT wrestling happens before he explains why justaze, irisviel, and the servants are around. And then says it will be explained around chapter 40. That's expecting years of investment in a story the reader doesn't care about any of the main characters. How is that a fair, resonable, or sane expectation?
For some examples: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10559983/1/Purple-and-Black-Reloaded (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10559983/1/Purple-and-Black-Reloaded)
Quote from: summary
Kiritsugu saves two children from the ashes of the Fourth Holy Grail War, and returns to Germany to bargain the truth for his other daughter. But perhaps the Magus Killer may have underestimated the Einzbern's ruthlessness... Rewrite of Purple and Black
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10681187/1/Meeting-of-Fate (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10681187/1/Meeting-of-Fate)
Quote from: summary
Arturia is put in Sakura's place! Read to find out about her life! AU, Sakura still in-story, don't worry.
Why should I care about lantz's fic, but not these other ones? Neither hook my attention, neither have an interesting concept, and neither is terribly well written. Why should I hold Lantz to a different standard than the one I hold everyone else to? Why should he get special treatment, while all the others don't get my time of day. People don't have infinite time, so why should I be expected to serially read something I am not enjoying, and probably won't until possibly chapter 40, most likely years into the future, instead of doing something I enjoy? Lantz isn't special, I'm just giving him the treatment I'd give anyone else. It's on him if his story doesn't interest anyone, not everyone else.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 05:54:20 PM
Again, don't confuse "spoiling the mystery" with "establishing the setting".
and this. They are not the same at all. you need to have a foundation to build the mystery upon, or else it just collapses in on itself and ends up a jumbled mess.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 06:09:47 PM
Again, don't confuse "spoiling the mystery" with "establishing the setting".

Well, yes, I agree that the basic setting should be explained earlier, but not every question asked fits under that. Indeed, the questions Lantz has answered "wait and see" to are ones that would be spoilers for later aspects of the plot. When people have asked things like "why are the servants around", Lantz has answered those questions.

You perhaps do have an argument in terms of the story structure, but when it comes to the Q&A stuff I don't think there is that much of an argument, because the basic setting-establishing questions Lantz has answered when asked. The ones he's not answered are ones he feels would ruin the story if he didn't.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 06:10:34 PM
Q:why do the servants have physical bodies?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 06:11:35 PM
and please tell me why I should treat lantz differently from other fanfic authors?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 06:14:31 PM
For an example: let's say I begin my story with a man being murdered. Next scene, the main character begins with either "Last night, my father was murdered." or "Last night, a man was murdered."

Even though both lines are nearly the same, with just a few words swapped, they both establish completely different things about the setting; they both give us a different understanding of the situation the mystery's being built upon.

Hell, you can add another layer of mystery with the latter line; if I have the main character be like one of those obsessed cops, the latter line can mask his motivation. Either he's like that because of an earlier failed case with the same criminal, a similar case, he's just obsessive like that, or perhaps the victim was very close to him?

And even if I don't go for that second layer and use the former line, the mystery works just as well. The mystery is still "who murdered Person X and why?". It doesn't take anything away from it, while at the same time giving us some understanding to stand on.

That's what we're asking. Something to understand what's going on, a common ground, something to give us a reason to care for the story and be curious about the mystery it presents. As it is, there isn't any of that.

And, before you say it; no, just because it's OC-centric doesn't mean it's bad. I've seen a couple of good Nasuverse fics which center on OCs and/or go outside the known established stories. But what sets them apart is that, despite having no ties to canon characters and doing their own thing, they still FEEL like a Nasuverse story. They do an excellent job in establishing the setting and thus people can relate to them. It also helps they're very well written and thus enjoyable on their own.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 06:16:40 PM
I completely agree with kaiza there.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 06:25:10 PM
should I be following this fic too?
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10686133/1/Dirge-of-Cerberus (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10686133/1/Dirge-of-Cerberus)
Never forget no matter how painful is never forget you were born from flames. This isnt he story of Emiya Shirou this is the story of another survivor who wished to regain what had been taken from him. His existence would change the Fifth Hol Grail War, a different war, different servants a remake of A Cursed fate. Still Red Saber X OC

Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 06:28:35 PM
Also, it should NEVER take so much time to establish your characters.

Every single story out there establishes their characters on their very first appearance. Notice I said ESTABLISH; you don't have to tell us EVERYTHING about the character, all their powers, their history and all that flair. No, no, no...you just have to give us enough info about them so that we KNOW who they are. That way, we can become invested in them, and you can start peppering the other details throughout the story. If you've given us a reason to care about them, we will want to know more about them.

Notice how characters introduced early in stories tend to be better developed than ones introduced very late; it's for that very reason. When introduced late, you have very little time to add all the details, so they tend to either be reduced to just the basics (and if you're lucky, expanded later on), or outright dumped all at once. Their characterization tends to be rushed as well. On the other hand, if you establish your characters early, you have the entire length of the story to give more insight unto them and give them some good character development.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 06:37:46 PM
As an example, compare Rin's development vs. Sakura's development in FSN. (No offense to any fans)

Rin is introduced very early, and has the entire story to develop her character, to varying degrees. Prologue and Fate establish who she is, UBW gives her some development, and HF continues that development while also expanding her backstory and such.

Sakura, on the other hand...while she's also introduced early on, and she has some establishing moments, she has practically no (visible) role in the first two routes. It isn't until HF that we get to see some development for her, and unfortunately, even this had to share a spotlight with A LOT of other plot developments in her route. As a result, a lot of people tend to overlook Sakura for the other characters, who had been established in prior routes and thus (to them) seemed much more interesting.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 06:39:17 PM
As an example, compare Rin's development vs. Sakura's development in FSN. (No offense to any fans)

Rin is introduced very early, and has the entire story to develop her character, to varying degrees. Prologue and Fate establish who she is, UBW gives her some development, and HF continues that development while also expanding her backstory and such.

Sakura, on the other hand...while she's also introduced early on, and she has some establishing moments, she has practically no (visible) role in the first two routes. It isn't until HF that we get to see some development for her, and unfortunately, even this had to share a spotlight with A LOT of other plot developments in her route. As a result, a lot of people tend to overlook Sakura for the other characters, who had been established in prior routes and thus (to them) seemed much more interesting.
This is true, sadly. And Sakura's established better early on than Satoshi.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 06:40:18 PM
Yeah, but Sakura is not a flat or poorly-developed character, and she's developed in that way because she has to be for the story to work. The problem is that a lot of people just fast-forward through her development because they want to see flashy fight scenes....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 06:42:44 PM
Or, hell, just look at Kotomine vs. Zouken. Kotomine was an established villain in Fate, and even if he had a lesser role in UBW, he had a more prominent role and development in HF. Zouken only appears in HF, and as a result, his entire development is either rushed or expanded outside the story. Now, tell me, which of these two characters people find more interesting?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 06:43:27 PM
Yeah, but Sakura is not a flat or poorly-developed character, and she's developed in that way because she has to be for the story to work. The problem is that a lot of people just fast-forward through her development because they want to see flashy fight scenes....
That wasn't the point, Mike. He was saying she's percieved as undevelpoed by alot of people, not that she is underdeveloped.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 06:47:03 PM
Yeah, but Sakura is not a flat or poorly-developed character, and she's developed in that way because she has to be for the story to work. The problem is that a lot of people just fast-forward through her development because they want to see flashy fight scenes....
That wasn't the point, Mike. He was saying she's perceived as undeveloped by alot of people, not that she is underdeveloped.
It doesn't help that the entire "Dark Sakura" issue ended up giving a lot of people the wrong ideas about her. Turning villainous in your own route while the other characters get more development because of it did not do the character any favors...
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 06:47:53 PM
Why is it alright for the mods to go off topic?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 06:51:07 PM
Well, technically it is on topic, since we were discussing the issues about the story, and these were just examples. If things were going off-topic, I would have cut this discussion long ago, when I asked you yesterday to just leave the thread be.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 07:03:16 PM
@Kaiza

it's a time travel story, I AM ESTABLISHING THE SETTING. Secondly Shirou is forty nine years old when Satoshi is eighteen, excuse me for taking forty chapters to explain all that has happened since the time he was born and then the new cast as the hero grows up.

there's a lot to tell and giving the readers context is important.

@Bdoom

you lie, Justica is never mentioned in the four chapters, you are thereby complaining for no reason.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 07:09:36 PM
@Kaiza

it's a time travel story, I AM ESTABLISHING THE SETTING. Secondly Shirou is forty nine years old when Satoshi is eighteen, excuse me for taking forty chapters to explain all that has happened since the time he was born and then the new cast as the hero grows up.

there's a lot to tell and giving the readers context is important.

@Bdoom

you lie, Justica is never mentioned in the four chapters, you are thereby complaining for no reason.
I'll just say this, one last time.
Just going by the first chapter, the hook of the story. At no point, when reading the first chapter, did I think "Hm, yeah, this is a time travel story." When I read it, the impression I got was "Hm, OK, so there's these three characters, they're planning something and...what...the...why are we...they're wrestling...and ORT...how..."

What that means, is that you FAILED TO ESTABLISH THE SETTING. You tried to establish a mystery, and it was OK-ish, but you utterly failed the second, most important part.

The only reason I know it's a time travel story, and that it's another universe, is because YOU TOLD US. We didn't get that from the story, we had to be told, out of story, by the author. That is a no-no.

Also, Bdoom, please, don't reply to him. That's bound to just aggravate both you and lantz; and I don't think anybody wants to deal with another argument. =_=
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 07:14:03 PM
No, I didn't. I wasn't trying to say this is a time travel story with the first chapter, the prologue implied that it was Kaiza.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 07:16:56 PM
I mentioned the prologue there, lantz (the three characters planning something part). I grouped it with the first chapter because both of them are in the same post. And, no, the prologue didn't imply it was a time travel story either. Again, we had to be TOLD by you for us to even realize it was.

Honestly, I give up.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
Actually it's only because you forgot Aoko is the master of time. If she's present travel, in time, is implied, even if that weren't enough chapter three fixes that but in either case you've missed my point. The setting is being established, it's weird yeah, no argument, it's supposed to be. But it's all important for context.

it's a fairly simple set up.

introduce magi we know, explain the overarching situation, present solution, show solution at work. The only difference is like parallel works the solution (in this case Satoshi) is not temporally the ones we see but another one entirely (hence their failures) the reason they exist is to prove that he can fail or die. Which is important because he's given Avalon.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Knick on October 02, 2014, 07:39:42 PM
No she isn't though, Zel actually has the nickname of "Old Man Time" as one of his many titles.

We did not even know Aoko could do stuff with time till Mahou, which was far after all the Fate materials you claim were after you wrote up your story.

And even then what she does is not really time travel but rather manipulation of order of events, such as postponing someones death.

Quote from: CM III
Witness, “Wizard Marshall” Kischua Zelretch Schweinorg
One of the only five True Magicians in the world. Zelretch served as the witness during the creation of the Greater Grail. He is an old man with many nicknames. He has been referred to as “Wizard Marshall”, “(Zelretch ) Of the Jewel”, “Kaleidoscope”, “Old Man Time” and many other names. The 5 phenomenon that cannot be achieved through sorcery or science are called “True Magic”, and those individuals who can invoke these are called “True Magicians”. Zelretch once fought the existence known as “Crimson Moon”. Although emerging victorious (draw?), he paid a heavy price. As a result of this engagement, he became severely aged, and his powers diminished. And it was also at that time, he was bitten by the Crimson Moon and turned into a vampire. His name was entered into the list of “The 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors”, which documents powerful vampires.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 07:42:50 PM
Oh shit you're right. What thefuck, lantz
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 07:52:27 PM
Actually knick it was melty blood. The translation of Aoko's quotes were what old BLer's gave to me when I asked about it. We presumed back then it was time travel and it turned out to line up with what we thought. As for it not being such and such, time manipulation is the foundation of time travel, so if anything Aoko is simply stronger than I thought.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 07:56:02 PM
No she isn't though, Zel actually has the nickname of "Old Man Time" as one of his many titles.

We did not even know Aoko could do stuff with time till Mahou, which was far after all the Fate materials you claim were after you wrote up your story.

And even then what she does is not really time travel but rather manipulation of order of events, such as postponing someones death.

Quote from: CM III
Witness, “Wizard Marshall” Kischua Zelretch Schweinorg
One of the only five True Magicians in the world. Zelretch served as the witness during the creation of the Greater Grail. He is an old man with many nicknames. He has been referred to as “Wizard Marshall”, “(Zelretch ) Of the Jewel”, “Kaleidoscope”, “Old Man Time” and many other names. The 5 phenomenon that cannot be achieved through sorcery or science are called “True Magic”, and those individuals who can invoke these are called “True Magicians”. Zelretch once fought the existence known as “Crimson Moon”. Although emerging victorious (draw?), he paid a heavy price. As a result of this engagement, he became severely aged, and his powers diminished. And it was also at that time, he was bitten by the Crimson Moon and turned into a vampire. His name was entered into the list of “The 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors”, which documents powerful vampires.

We didn't know Aoko could do stuff with time before Mayoho, no, but it was a very common theory in the fandom. I don't think it was in any way unreasonable for Lantz to have picked up on that.

Actually knick it was melty blood. The translation of Aoko's quotes were what old BLer's gave to me when I asked about it. We presumed back then it was time travel and it turned out to line up with what we thought. As for it not being such and such, time manipulation is the foundation of time travel, so if anything Aoko is simply stronger than I thought.

Apparently, she can't actually time-travel fully (although Zelretch seemingly can), but that certainly isn't something that we'd have worked out at the time. Her magic having something to do with time was at least hinted at, and given the known magics, time travel was a logical assumption for Aoko's magic.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 02, 2014, 09:56:48 PM
If that is true then the Nasuverse is a place where a time traveling, world hopping, vampire who goes surfing is a thing. The ridiculousness of canon far outweighs anything I did. All in all I think that the continuation of discussion fits.

@Bdoom

A: each hero has a different reason for a body, if I recall correctly it goes like this

Hercules: god, he came back but was forced to assume his prior but now living form.

Lancer: King of the little people tricked him into getting a body

Saber: the prophecy of the king's return as per White's work

Rider: She, Medea and Gilgamesh all gained enough Mana to assume human form throught AOG rites.

Archer: paradox
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 03, 2014, 12:30:06 AM
Q:why do you expect us to hold interest for 40 chapters?
And Kaiza this is my second to last question, I swear.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 03, 2014, 03:23:39 AM
@Bdoom

A: setting aside the first three chapters four through forty contain mostly the canon characters doing stuff. It fleshes out the zero universe so to speak.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 03, 2014, 11:53:26 AM
...
I forgot my follow up question.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 03, 2014, 11:54:24 AM
Ah fuck it
Q: does is satoshi involved in the next fourty chapters?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 03, 2014, 02:31:57 PM
@Bdoom

one would presume that, assuming you are following up the interest question, it would likely have had to do with the setting.

A: in varying degrees yes, as much as a kid can be involved that is.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on October 04, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
OK, let's do Kaiza's thing with establishing the setting, with an OC heavy work that I'm doing myself.

I admittedly make a mistake by opening with the pair in conversation, establishing some names and characters before I start establishing where they are and what they're doing - but I get that in as fast as I can. The dialogue helps establish their characterization, lets me establish setting, and also doesn't drag on too long before shit actually happens and the setting begins to be defined.

Note this Lantz. I don't wait 40 fucking chapters for my MAIN CHARACTER to pop up and actually be relevant. Your main character doesn't have to be important to the plot initially, but the focus should be on him. Get that? You don't seem to. What you do is basically say "THIS GUY IS THE MAIN CHARACTER OK" without giving us any reason to really care about him. Instead, you throw him around more interesting characters who all seem to love him, which is annoying. That's the problem you have.

You don't establish a foundation (setting) before building the house (plot) and furniture (characters). Instead, you install the furniture first, drop the building on top of it, and THEN start pouring the foundation which makes everything a mess.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 05, 2014, 12:59:43 AM
@Arch

sorry, that subject already ran out, we're discussing other stuff.

I suppose, as much as the adult content was a learning experience (requested by readers) I should answer questions about those too. So we can discuss that here as well.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 07, 2014, 01:35:47 AM
Q: OK, well, what do you think of the various characters, and their pairings and relationships? Who do you like writing, and who don't you?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 07, 2014, 07:01:18 AM
@CL

A: well starting with Shirou.

Shirou is my kinda hero, his nature and surface appearance is are the same (except for being weirdly ok with molesting as subject matter) as for relationships, frankly I don't buy him and Rin together. I could see him with Saber, Sakura, Medea or Bazzet though.

Rin: she's actually a kind caring person, it's why she's a great subject of my work, I only see her with Archer relationship wise.

Sakura: greatest potential of the three heroines imo, she obviously belongs with Shirou but like all of Shirou's relationships it's toxic as it is. I think Sakura needs time away to grow a bit.

more to come later
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 07, 2014, 05:00:46 PM
@CL

A: well starting with Shirou.

Shirou is my kinda hero, his nature and surface appearance is are the same (except for being weirdly ok with molesting as subject matter) as for relationships, frankly I don't buy him and Rin together. I could see him with Saber, Sakura, Medea or Bazzet though.

Rin: she's actually a kind caring person, it's why she's a great subject of my work, I only see her with Archer relationship wise.

Hmm, well, the molesting thing is just Japan, really (and even then it's misinterpreted). As for the pairings, I agree with you about Sakura and Saber (although I obviously prefer Sakura as a partner for him). As for Rin, I agree with you to an extent, in that I think she's better paired with Archer, but I don't think her and Shirou are incompatible. I just think she works better with an older version of Shirou who can fight back.

As for the others, I can't comment on Bazett because I know precisely nothing about her, but I'm not convinced about pairing Shirou with Medea. I'm sure she'd fall for Shirou if you put her in the right situation, and I'm sure he'd protect her if she came into his care, but I'm not convinced that that pairing could work long-term. Medea is just too self-centred and willing to harm others for her not to come into conflict with Shirou at some point. Even if he can convince her not to outright start murdering people for prana (which would be difficult given that Shirou has so little of it), she's not going to take his self-sacrificial nature well at all, or his total unwillingness to hurt even people who are his enemies unless absolutely necessary. And, even if that could be avoided, I'm not sure her personality is one that would appeal to Shirou or that he would fall in love with. He would care for and protect her, yes, but I'm not sure he'd love her like he comes to love Saber, Rin or Sakura.

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Sakura: greatest potential of the three heroines imo

Potential in what sense?

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she obviously belongs with Shirou but like all of Shirou's relationships it's toxic as it is. I think Sakura needs time away to grow a bit.

Honestly, I don't agree. Whilst Sakura does need to "grow", I don't think pairing her with Shirou in any way prevents that. In fact, I think it does the opposite. I think that giving her the support structure of Shirou and Rin allows her to get over her past and blossom into the strong person she's capable of being.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 09, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
As for Tsukihime, it's simple the three heroines that need Shiki are Akiha, Satsuki and Kohaku, personally I fit him with Kohaku. The rest I view as free agents (lemon wise) like I do Rider, Medea, the maids and so on.

my attitude writing lemons is why not.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 09, 2014, 04:24:51 PM
my attitude writing lemons is why not.

Why not what?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 09, 2014, 04:29:25 PM
Why not period. As in why not have these two characters fuck, sure, I don't think Caren ever says two words to Sakura but they can have a four way with Shirou or whoever.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 09, 2014, 04:34:46 PM
Why not period. As in why not have these two characters fuck, sure, I don't think Caren ever says two words to Sakura but they can have a four way with Shirou or whoever.

Ah, OK, so, basically, you're saying you'll write just about anything as long as it's somewhere close to in-character (i.e. Shirou isn't going to suddenly turn into an evil, sadistic rapist who tortures Sakura for kicks...)?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 09, 2014, 11:06:01 PM
Yeah, that actually pretty much what I mean. I don't have a problem writing any pairings or situations (save for loli and Yaoi which I do not write period) although if I'm honest I prefer not to pair Saber with anyone but Shirou, Kohaku with anyone but Shiki and Lancer with Bazzet and vice versa. They don't fit else where in my head.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 19, 2014, 06:25:38 AM
Anyway for complete clarity on the subject, Satoshi is possessed of Entropy. That's a thing, hash tag spoiler alert.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 19, 2014, 02:49:04 PM
What do you mean, "possessed of entropy"?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 20, 2014, 01:26:17 AM
Not unlike Ryougi, he is possessed of the concept of entropy. This makes what he does he possible, the fights etcetera and some of his more bizarre abilities. It also means he dies at the story's end as the only thing that can exist beyond entropy is a wish, a hope.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 20, 2014, 02:35:18 AM
Not unlike Ryougi, he is possessed of the concept of entropy. This makes what he does he possible, the fights etcetera and some of his more bizarre abilities.

What do you mean "possessed of the concept of entropy"? Entropy is (roughly) a statistical measurement of the amount of disorder in a system. I don't get what you mean by him possessing that as a concept.

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It also means he dies at the story's end as the only thing that can exist beyond entropy is a wish, a hope.

I don't follow, why does that imply that he has to die?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 20, 2014, 04:15:57 AM
That's statistical Entropy, I'm referring to maximum entropy otherwise commonly known as the heat death of the universe. By which no life escapes or can exist.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 20, 2014, 04:17:47 AM
That's statistical Entropy, I'm referring to maximum entropy otherwise commonly known as the heat death of the universe. By which no life escapes or can exist.

Well, OK, I guess that makes sense, but in what way does he possess that concept, and why does it mean he has to die?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 20, 2014, 05:57:23 AM
Because everything returns to zero as a result of entropy including Satoshi himself. Originally the work had intended to be a paula's prayer or death in the family situation where the readers would decide his final fate but that's clearly not possible now.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 20, 2014, 07:07:15 PM
I thought you said Toshi ended up in Avalon or with Rider, or something like that....

And, technically, Entropy isn't "returning to Zero". Entropy is a constantly increasing thing, so it never returns to anything.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 20, 2014, 07:22:15 PM
He does, in theory, but that all takes place after the final Battle. The epilogue, endings and Satoshi's ultimate fate however were never decided to be a necessary part of that. The conclusion of the final battle is just as valid an ending as the rest.

entropy in this case being the collapse of the universe leaving only the zero point or the root left.

again it was supposed to be decided by the readers. There's fifty plus endings to the story if memory serves. Sadly due to trolling it's not possible to have readers decide on an ending together.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 20, 2014, 08:57:08 PM
He does, in theory, but that all takes place after the final Battle. The epilogue, endings and Satoshi's ultimate fate however were never decided to be a necessary part of that. The conclusion of the final battle is just as valid an ending as the rest.

How can he both die "in theory" and also live?

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entropy in this case being the collapse of the universe leaving only the zero point or the root left.

That's not entropy, though. In fact, I believe the collapse of the universe (in a Big Crunch) is one of the few situations in which the entropy of the universe actually could decrease. The heat death of the universe (which is the path increasing entropy inevitably leads to) will not result in an empty universe, but rather one that is a sea of fundamental particles at a uniform temperature (where no chemical reactions or other methods of extracting energy from the surroundings to enable a local entropy decrease are possible, and thus life cannot exist).

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again it was supposed to be decided by the readers. There's fifty plus endings to the story if memory serves. Sadly due to trolling it's not possible to have readers decide on an ending together.

Well, yeah....

I'm not convinced "reader-decided endings" is that great an idea anyway. It would probably just end up horribly grimdark and with Sakura dying horribly or something like that....

Also, how does that fit with the "entropy" thing? If he's always fated to die (well, everyone is eventually, precisely for entropic reasons (i.e. the state of being dead has a lot more ways of existing than the state of being 'you' does, so given enough time you will always transition to the "dead" state)), how can he have endings in which he doesn't?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 20, 2014, 10:58:04 PM
Because Satoshi is a wish, once his soul returns he's nothing but hope and a memory, he doesn't exist unless he's wanted. If wanted then he comes back. If not then he doesn't.

the reader decided ending is like Rider A,B,C. Kohaku, Ciel and so on like that.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 21, 2014, 02:37:05 AM
Because Satoshi is a wish, once his soul returns he's nothing but hope and a memory, he doesn't exist unless he's wanted. If wanted then he comes back. If not then he doesn't.

the reader decided ending is like Rider A,B,C. Kohaku, Ciel and so on like that.

I see....

So, basically, his family wishes him into existence?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 21, 2014, 07:48:55 PM
No, no one group could do it, it's a scant possibility at best that he comes back.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 21, 2014, 08:47:28 PM
No, no one group could do it, it's a scant possibility at best that he comes back.

Oh, I see.

That sounds like a kind-of depressing ending....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 22, 2014, 07:59:04 PM
Depends on how you see it I suppose. Bittersweet yeah, definitely but depressing, hmmm, no, not really.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 22, 2014, 08:09:38 PM
Depends on how you see it I suppose. Bittersweet yeah, definitely but depressing, hmmm, no, not really.

Well, aside from the fact that he is dead (which sucks for him), all of his family are going to be sad that he died too. I don't see anything particularly "sweet" in that....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Xamusel on October 23, 2014, 04:11:50 AM
Lantz, forgive me if this seems to be on the negative side, but I feel it needs to be asked.

Have you ever thought of expanding your paragraphs some? I mean, honestly, I was taught that a good paragraph focuses on one thought at a time (either that, or I'm misremembering, but I think that's how it goes). I've seen your writing on Beast's Lair as multiple thoughts a paragraph (sometimes even more than one per sentence)... that's something I wish to help you with (if you'd like help).
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 23, 2014, 04:40:58 AM
@CL

yeah, but he saved everyone, win dude.

@Xam

to what exactly are you referring?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Xamusel on October 23, 2014, 05:00:52 AM
Okay, since I don't rightly remember off the top of my head what it is that I'm referring to, I'm gonna have to dig it up from the rest of the internet. Hold onto this thought until I get back with it... alright?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 23, 2014, 11:48:49 AM
@CL

yeah, but he saved everyone, win dude.

Well, except for his parents, who will be sad, and anyone else who cares about him....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: YOLF on October 23, 2014, 05:11:02 PM
Q: So what I got from the last few comments was that, being born from a wish so he could win that "final battle" you mentioned, he's supposed to vanish into entropy after he's done with it?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 23, 2014, 05:47:58 PM
So, basically, Toshi as a character has no real life? He literally just exists to solve a problem, and then vanishes without a trace when that problem is solved?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 23, 2014, 05:49:31 PM
That's so edgy
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 23, 2014, 06:42:40 PM
YOLF

A: not exactly but mostly yes. I mean have you seen the other nasuverse protagonists? They are all horribly doomed in one way or another and you add that to the fact that Merlin is the guy who planned the kid's involvement in the problem at hand and there's really no other way this could go.

@CL

no, his body cannot overcome entropy and all that is left is the concept of him. Concepts are neat but you need a physical form to inhabit the world. Hence he's dead.

@Bdoom

seriously, leave me alone, I'm sick to death of your attitude. Go do something, anything else but leave me the fuck alone. I'm here in this thread for productive discussion, not to deal with snotty comments.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 23, 2014, 07:59:50 PM
YOLF

A: not exactly but mostly yes. I mean have you seen the other nasuverse protagonists? They are all horribly doomed in one way or another and you add that to the fact that Merlin is the guy who planned the kid's involvement in the problem at hand and there's really no other way this could go.

Well, Merlin perhaps, but what about the rest? Aren't they just total dicks for doing this? And, what would Saber and Shirou feel about it? He's their son, and he was literally created for the sole purpose of dealing with some problem and then discarded.

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@CL

no, his body cannot overcome entropy and all that is left is the concept of him. Concepts are neat but you need a physical form to inhabit the world. Hence he's dead.

Well, yeah, the point is that he literally exists solely to solve this problem. His entire existence has no point to it aside from as a device to save the world.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: YOLF on October 23, 2014, 09:31:34 PM
A: not exactly but mostly yes. I mean have you seen the other nasuverse protagonists? They are all horribly doomed in one way or another and you add that to the fact that Merlin is the guy who planned the kid's involvement in the problem at hand and there's really no other way this could go.

Shirou isn't really horribly doomed in any route of FSN, Shiki was always going to have a shortened life because of his eyes but that doesn't mean he's going to end up badly, and Ryougi is actually pretty well off.

I do think I get what you mean, but... the hero having to narratively face an unsatisfactory end or dying after they've saved the world or accomplished what they've set out to do in stories isn't necessarily the same as what you're trying to do with Satoshi. In some stories the hero has that sort of end because it is framed within its themes, and the bittersweetness of how things go is part of what it's trying to tell. Here, from what you've said, it's a fact within the story that is going to come about because of how the hero was created, rather than being spurred on by some narrative weight.

I have to admit I'm surprised you're actually setting it up so Satoshi has to inevitably disappear at the end of the story, given that the themes you seem to want to explore with it are all rather positive and framed in idealism and inherent human goodness.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 23, 2014, 09:33:30 PM
yeah, same. I am quite surprised. Such an edgy ending for an idealistic fic.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 23, 2014, 10:20:54 PM
@CL

well Aoko, she's kinda the reason the multiverse is going to be destroyed, short version is super guilt for previous events. Zelretch treats everything like a TV show to avoid attachment and Gilgamesh and Kirei, well the former respects Satoshi's conviction and the latter is pissed off that he lost their battle of wills.

the rest don't know the truth except Fab who isn't present at the end.

his existence as a hero was yes, not his existence period.

@YOLF

it was his fate to die yes. More importantly it was his choice to accept that fate for the people he loves. Ultimately their hope for his return can only be fulfilled if the readers think he deserves their love and allow the wish to come to pass. I've been serious about this from the start. He comes back only if you guys thing he deserves to come back.

Love, hope, sacrifice, kindness charity and generosity are the themes of the work. Humanity is awesome sir.

Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 23, 2014, 10:28:02 PM
@CL

well Aoko, she's kinda the reason the multiverse is going to be destroyed, short version is super guilt for previous events. Zelretch treats everything like a TV show to avoid attachment and Gilgamesh and Kirei, well the former respects Satoshi's conviction and the latter is pissed off that he lost their battle of wills.

And she doesn't feel guilt for what they're doing to Toshi?

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his existence as a hero was yes, not his existence period.

It was, though. He was created to solve the problem, and he dies when it is solved.

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it was his fate to die yes. More importantly it was his choice to accept that fate for the people he loves.

But, he was forced into a situation of "die or let everyone die". That's not exactly a free choice....

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Ultimately their hope for his return can only be fulfilled if the readers think he deserves their love and allow the wish to come to pass. I've been serious about this from the start. He comes back only if you guys thing he deserves to come back.

That's a really odd way of doing it....

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Humanity is awesome sir.

Unless you're Zelretch or Aoko, apparently....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 24, 2014, 04:59:12 AM
@CL

no, at that time Aoko simply wants to die. Entropy is her out.

he wasn't born to solve the problem, he was co-opted to do it. There's a difference.

it's not odd, it's different from fan fiction yes but not odd.

you're forgetting the time index issue in Aoko's case and Zelretch, well in the prologue he was willing to cease to exist to save reality so....
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 26, 2014, 06:33:27 PM
@CL

no, at that time Aoko simply wants to die. Entropy is her out.

Doesn't excuse setting someone else up to die after they've finished their role.

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he wasn't born to solve the problem, he was co-opted to do it. There's a difference.

Not really. They're the ones who (I assume) gave him that origin. It's their fault he is going to die when he completes his "job".

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it's not odd, it's different from fan fiction yes but not odd.

Well, it's just odd to decide if he lives or not based on whether the readers want it enough to literally wish him back into existence.

Quote
you're forgetting the time index issue in Aoko's case and Zelretch, well in the prologue he was willing to cease to exist to save reality so....

What?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 27, 2014, 11:17:29 PM
But Aoko didn't, nor did Merlin who planned everything, it's just a consequence and Merlin is very goal oriented.

Actually there is a difference, Satoshi existed before his origin became what it is. This means that he factually does exist rather than being an artificially created person.

odd, nah, Jason Todd, look him up.

there's two Aokos in the story, the one in the present and the one in the future. And Zelretch is willing to die himself to save the universe so he's not exactly a douche.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 27, 2014, 11:50:00 PM
But Aoko didn't, nor did Merlin who planned everything, it's just a consequence and Merlin is very goal oriented.

They did, though. You said outright before that he would die when his role was complete.

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Actually there is a difference, Satoshi existed before his origin became what it is. This means that he factually does exist rather than being an artificially created person.

That makes it even worse. They took a person who could otherwise have lived a normal life and gave him an origin that ensured he would die when his role was completed.

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And Zelretch is willing to die himself to save the universe so he's not exactly a douche.

Nope, sorry. Being willing to die yourself doesn't give you the right to condemn someone else to death on your behalf.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 28, 2014, 10:29:41 PM
Designing it so he dies and dying as a consequence are very different dude. One is intended and is undeniably a terrible act, the other is unfortunate but doesn't damn the perpetrators.

erm, have you read king Arthur? Merlin did exactly that with Arturia, however, no, that is not what his origin does.

erm, Zelretch didn't do that. Zelretch is clearly not the mastermind. You need to understand the
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Xamusel on October 29, 2014, 01:18:18 AM
Er, Lantz, could you please clarify the last sentence of your last post? It cut off on us.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 29, 2014, 01:27:41 AM
Designing it so he dies and dying as a consequence are very different dude. One is intended and is undeniably a terrible act, the other is unfortunate but doesn't damn the perpetrators.

Erm, how could they not have known he would die as a result? And, if they did know and still went through with it, then that makes them monsters.

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erm, have you read king Arthur? Merlin did exactly that with Arturia,

Well, only in that she will die eventually. In the original story at least, King Arthur was told he would have a long reign that ended in tragedy.

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however, no, that is not what his origin does.

Except that you said it did....

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erm, Zelretch didn't do that. Zelretch is clearly not the mastermind. You need to understand the

Erm, what?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 30, 2014, 01:26:17 AM
@CL

it was one kid or the universe. Yeah, not ideal but sorta crammed into a corner on the subject. And Merlin was the only one to know.

no his origin completing is what kills him because entropy overtakes him.

the difference is that Zelretch doesn't know all the details.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 30, 2014, 02:10:44 AM
@CL

it was one kid or the universe. Yeah, not ideal but sorta crammed into a corner on the subject. And Merlin was the only one to know.

Still kind-of dickish....

Quote
no his origin completing is what kills him because entropy overtakes him.

Right, and how exactly does that come about?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 31, 2014, 08:01:50 PM
His origin completes when he soul is reassembled, entropy then overtakes him for all the shark jumping he's done as the scales are now unbalanced. He drops dead, there's a meta fight with entropy manifest as a person and then he is effectively dead because of a lack of a body, hope is amazing but without a will and a physical state it's powerless.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 31, 2014, 08:21:50 PM
His origin completes when he soul is reassembled, entropy then overtakes him for all the shark jumping he's done as the scales are now unbalanced. He drops dead, there's a meta fight with entropy manifest as a person and then he is effectively dead because of a lack of a body, hope is amazing but without a will and a physical state it's powerless.

OK, what?

What do you mean about the soul reassembly thing? And, how was this not inevitable?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: SINIB on October 31, 2014, 09:05:24 PM
I'd assume he means it means he finishes unifying his sould or whatever. He's brought up something about his sould being in pieces(or something like that), and how Satoshi is always trying to fix things and builds shit.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on October 31, 2014, 10:26:34 PM
He needs to reassemble his soul, though he's never aware of the fact.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on November 07, 2014, 09:26:22 PM
As for inevitability, hope is an eternal force, there's always hope which means there's always a chance he could come back, in theory anyway. Such as Satoshi is there's no guarantee one way or another if he lives or dies.

the important thing to remember here is that his powers, such as they are are explained and transmutive, honestly at the "true" end he has zero powers or weapons. Well aside from Gao and his crossbow
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 08, 2014, 04:39:52 AM
As for inevitability, hope is an eternal force, there's always hope which means there's always a chance he could come back, in theory anyway. Such as Satoshi is there's no guarantee one way or another if he lives or dies.

Well, yes, but you're writing the story, so you decide....

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the important thing to remember here is that his powers, such as they are are explained and transmutive, honestly at the "true" end he has zero powers or weapons. Well aside from Gao and his crossbow

Eh, what?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on November 08, 2014, 06:50:18 PM
To which part are you asking?
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 08, 2014, 07:03:01 PM
The "zero powers at the end" part.
Title: Re: character Q and A
Post by: lantzblades on November 08, 2014, 07:22:08 PM
Yeah, that's a thing, it leads into another bunch of stories.