Dark Side of the Moon

Type Moon => General Discussion => Topic started by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 03:24:21 AM

Title: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 03:24:21 AM
Unlike who would win this thread is a debate on how a character would win against another. The point is to debate and prove your point.

for the first round.

Sakura versus Ciel
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Dallas on July 23, 2014, 03:26:50 AM
uhh she wouldnt
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 03:35:48 AM
Unlike who would win this thread is a debate on how a character would win against another. The point is to debate and prove your point.

for the first round.

Sakura versus Ciel

Sakura summons Rider, Rider kicks Ciel's ass :P

Assuming you mean without using sentient familiars (although I presume that, in that case, Ciel should not be allowed to use her sentient scripture gun thing either), then Sakura could beat Ciel by trapping her in her shadow dimension somehow. After all, regeneration doesn't do an awful lot of good if you're trapped. How exactly Sakura would manage to swallow her I'm not sure, though.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 23, 2014, 03:40:42 AM
Ciel murderfucks Sakura bloody, move on.

Satoshi vs Gil.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: YOLF on July 23, 2014, 03:46:47 AM
No need to be rude about it, Chris. Also, you didn't state your argument.

Realistically, I'd say that Ciel wins against Sakura. Without Angra Mainyu she isn't particularly powerful and is not able to so easily do the many things she did as Dark Sakura, and against Ciel she has no particular advantage. Even without her scripture or her immortality, Ciel is a monster who is able to fight Servants defensively. One on one, in a realistic assessment, Ciel would definitely win.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 03:50:57 AM
Well, if summoning Rider is allowed, then Sakura wins. Otherwise, yeah, I think it's difficult to see how Sakura could beat her, but I think the general point of the thread was not to work out who would win, but to see if we could find a way that the underdog in the fight could actually pull off a shock victory. After all, no fight is a certainty.

Also, I think you're over-exaggerating the amount of effect that AM has on Sakura's magical ability, at least in the long term. I think that, with training, normal Sakura is capable of using most if not all of the magic that she uses in her dark form. The only major limit is her prana supply, which is lessened somewhat. And, as for Ciel's immortality, Sakura is one of the relatively few people for whom that is not actually a massive problem, because she is capable of swallowing people and imprisoning them in her shadow dimension, which doesn't kill Ciel and, thus, would not be affected by her immortality.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 23, 2014, 03:54:42 AM
Well, if summoning Rider is allowed, then Sakura wins. Otherwise, yeah, I think it's difficult to see how Sakura could beat her, but I think the general point of the thread was not to work out who would win, but to see if we could find a way that the underdog in the fight could actually pull off a shock victory. After all, no fight is a certainty.

Also, I think you're over-exaggerating the amount of effect that AM has on Sakura's magical ability, at least in the long term. I think that, with training, normal Sakura is capable of using most if not all of the magic that she uses in her dark form. The only major limit is her prana supply, which is lessened somewhat. And, as for Ciel's immortality, Sakura is one of the relatively few people for whom that is not actually a massive problem, because she is capable of swallowing people and imprisoning them in her shadow dimension.

1. It's not "Sakura and Rider vs Ciel", it's Sakura vs Ciel.

2. Ciel can literally oneshot Sakura using Black Keys and the Iron Plate Effect.

3. Sakura is weakshit without AM, since it gives her figuratively infinite mana.

4. For Sakura to trap Ciel is pretty much impossible given that Ciel can shove Black Keys or Seventh through Sakura's face faster than you can say "Can fight Servants".
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: YOLF on July 23, 2014, 03:55:26 AM
The point is to debate about who we think wins and prove our points. If you want to do it to give the underdog a chance at victory that's fine, but you have to look at things from an unbiased standpoint if you want to make fair and acceptable judgements on these things.

I didn't say she wasn't able to do those things. I only said she could "not so easily" do the same things as when she went Dark, and for justifiable reasons like Angra Mainyu's influence, the constant supply from the Grail, etc etc.

I did not see you present any point that counters my arguments well enough to make a Sakura victory believable, so I'll stick with Ciel winning as the very likely outcome.

Also Chris seriously, you don't need to word things in a way you know will upset people.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 03:59:18 AM
Things to say

1) actually I never said they were restricted to their own strength. If you can summon a dude then it counts.

2) be polite guys

3) discussing something new at this point is premature

4) win includes captures, tkos and the like.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 04:05:20 AM
The point is to debate about who we think wins and prove our points. If you want to do it to give the underdog a chance at victory that's fine, but you have to look at things from an unbiased standpoint if you want to make fair and acceptable judgements on these things.

I didn't say she wasn't able to do those things. I only said she could "not so easily" do the same things as when she went Dark, and for justifiable reasons like Angra Mainyu's influence, the constant supply from the Grail, etc etc.

I did not see you present any point that counters my arguments well enough to make a Sakura victory believable, so I'll stick with Ciel winning as the very likely outcome.

Also Chris seriously, you don't need to word things in a way you know will upset people.

I fully agree that, without Rider assisting, Sakura is highly unlikely to defeat Ciel. However, Lantz's first post does make it pretty clear that the idea of the thread was not to debate who would win but, rather, to come up with a plausible theory for how the first character could defeat the second (in this case, how Sakura could defeat Ciel).

I see no point in having a debate about who would win because, yes, it is pretty obvious that Ciel is a massive favourite in any such fight. However, I do think it is still an interesting exercise to consider ways in which Sakura could pull off an upset victory. Unlikely is not the same as impossible.

Things to say

1) actually I never said they were restricted to their own strength. If you can summon a dude then it counts.

Then Sakura wins pretty easily. She summons Rider, who kicks Ciel's ass for her. Sakura provides backup and, when Ciel is incapacitated by virtue of having been repeatedly perforated with nails, Sakura swallows her with her shadows. The only requirement here is that Sakura be trained enough to be able to use her shadow magic decently.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: YOLF on July 23, 2014, 04:12:37 AM
Personally I'd wager Ciel could mortally wound Sakura with a Black Key before she called Rider, if they started in the same conditions and aware of each other, but if Sakura got Rider out I'd bet on Ciel losing.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Elf on July 23, 2014, 04:14:21 AM
Honestly, I have to put the win on Ciel.

Even if Sakura was trained to the level of Rin, Ciel is a member of the Burial Agency.  She hunts Dead Apostles.  Alone. 

She can fight defensively against Arcuied, who is four times a "normal" Servant's power.  If we're comparing power, the two might be equal.  However, Ciel has something Sakura doesn't: experience.    Ciel has fought a lot.  Sakura hasn't.  This is a case where Sakura's lack of experience is going to cost her the win.

Not to mention, Sakura's weak to sempais.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 04:17:22 AM
It is indeed how, not who. I'm not looking for better, just how they could win.

if you both see your conclusion as definitive then we should move on. As for Chris' suggestion. Frankly I think it's best to avoid the topic, for the moment it's not debatable because I know everything about one party and the rest of you know virtually nothing.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 04:20:03 AM
Personally I'd wager Ciel could mortally wound Sakura with a Black Key before she called Rider, if they started in the same conditions and aware of each other, but if Sakura got Rider out I'd bet on Ciel losing.

Well, it would depend somewhat on the circumstances of the fight, yes, as well as on how easily Sakura could summon Rider. If she has command spells then I am not convinced Ciel could do that at all, not unless she launched a surprise attack (and, if she did and was not aware of Rider's existence, she would probably use the Black Keys to pin Sakura in place initially, giving her the time to summon Rider before Ciel finished her off), if not then it would be harder for Sakura. I think she would need to be very well-trained to take on Ciel on her own for any length of time.

Honestly, I have to put the win on Ciel.

Even if Sakura was trained to the level of Rin, Ciel is a member of the Burial Agency.  She hunts Dead Apostles.  Alone. 

She can fight defensively against Arcuied, who is four times a "normal" Servant's power.  If we're comparing power, the two might be equal.  However, Ciel has something Sakura doesn't: experience.    Ciel has fought a lot.  Sakura hasn't.  This is a case where Sakura's lack of experience is going to cost her the win.

Without Rider, Sakura is at a massive advantage, yes. With Rider available to Sakura, however, I think a reasonably-trained Sakura could survive long enough for Rider to get there and protect her, and if Rider shows up I think Ciel is in big trouble.

Quote
Not to mention, Sakura's weak to sempais.

Lol.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 04:36:41 AM
Well alright. Archer versus Gilgamesh
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 04:39:18 AM
Well alright. Archer versus Gilgamesh

Well, Archer could presumably win that in a similar way to how Shirou did, by taking advantage of the utter contempt which Gil feels towards him. It would be harder for Archer because Gil isn't quite stupid enough to treat a fellow servant as casually as he did Shirou, but then Archer is stronger and more experienced than Shirou, so that should cancel that out.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 05:15:26 AM
Assuming solo I don't see him winning honestly
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 01:20:00 PM
Why? If Shirou can manage to defeat Gil, then surely Archer is capable of doing so....
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 03:49:51 PM
Archer's Cerebral fighting style gives him an advantage against other opponents but Gilgamesh is different. You can't out think a bull who's charging, unless Archer adopts a wholly different strategy he's done for.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 03:54:16 PM
I'd say that out-thinking is precisely how to beat Gil. You're not going to win by brute force, after all. And, besides, you're forgetting that Archer is more-or-less perfect for taking on Gil. He has a counter to GoB, and is such a "mongrel" that Gil is never likely to pull out Ea until it's too late.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on July 23, 2014, 07:03:35 PM
Archer is basically Gil's worst nightmare to face - UBW can beat all his fucking shit into the ground and Archer has mastered it, Archer knows how to use ERRY phantasm through that resonance effect so he's also got that advantage.

The question is if he can get through Gil's armor. I'd argue he *could* but it'd be difficult, and would probably end with either Gil and Archer dead or Gil dead and Archer pretty much a millimeter from death.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 07:37:21 PM
I can't believe that Archer wouldn't have something he could do to break through Gil's armour. Plus, even if he didn't, I don't see any armour on Gil's head....

I guess the question is whether or not Archer can manage it before his prana depletes. Certainly I don't see Gil defeating him in a straight fight, because UBW is almost a perfect counter to GoB, and Gil is too arrogant to do anything other than spam generic swords at him. The only way Gil wins is by Archer running out of prana to maintain UBW.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 23, 2014, 08:16:25 PM
I can't believe that Archer wouldn't have something he could do to break through Gil's armour. Plus, even if he didn't, I don't see any armour on Gil's head....

Karna's armor is literally scattered bits of gold and thigh-high socks and it works on his entire body, including his head. This argument is stupid, and regardless of if it's right, do you honestly believe Gil will let EMIYA get near his face? He'd be full of swords before you can say "Surely this body was made out of swords".

As for the matchup, unless you want to perceive Gil as he seems to usually be in Mike and lantz's case (AKA A complete and total fucking idiot), he will absolutely steamroll Archer. It's just a matter of how serious you want to believe Gil is and how much plot armor you wanna give EMIYA.

Basically, for the health of this thread's future, unless you give a ridiculous advantage to his opponent (IE give EMIYA his plot armor in UBW route, Shirou his Protagonist Modifier + ONORE status effect, Let Karna get a surprise attack) and have him be entirely unserious, Gil wins against literally any human or Servant.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 23, 2014, 09:23:31 PM
Well for my money I agree for the most part with Arch. Excepting one thing, sniping, if it's a sniper battle Gil's ass is toast because Archer actually has real skill in that regard.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on July 23, 2014, 09:31:35 PM
Depends on if he has a defense against that and if Archer can muscle his way through it.

I'm tending towards Archer getting through being a no, though he might get lucky
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 23, 2014, 09:41:14 PM
This argument is stupid, and regardless of if it's right, do you honestly believe Gil will let EMIYA get near his face? He'd be full of swords before you can say "Surely this body was made out of swords".

Erm, what? Gil is really bad at actually just killing enemies. I would expect it to end up with Archer being able to summon UBW before Gil actually got to GoB spam....

Quote
As for the matchup, unless you want to perceive Gil as he seems to usually be in Mike and lantz's case (AKA A complete and total fucking idiot), he will absolutely steamroll Archer. It's just a matter of how serious you want to believe Gil is and how much plot armor you wanna give EMIYA.

Gil is not an idiot, but he is extremely arrogant and careless, and he definitely sees Archer as beneath him. He could steamroller Archer, but I doubt he would because he sees Archer as too worthy of contempt for that.

Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: YOLF on July 23, 2014, 10:34:22 PM
If we want to be realistic, we have to take into account how even though Gil has the power to defeat any other Servant or Heroic Spirit and should be able if he makes do, his personality and attitude towards opponents are real and very exploitable weaknesses.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 24, 2014, 01:27:53 AM

Gil is not an idiot, but he is extremely arrogant and careless, and he definitely sees Archer as beneath him. He could steamroller Archer, but I doubt he would because he sees Archer as too worthy of contempt for that.

Like I said, how much ONORE and plot do you want EMIYA to have? Coz that is exactly what this entails. Gil possesses the ability to steamroll five of any one Heroic Spirit with relative ease. Without taking into his arrogance (which I think is fair, given that everyone in this entire fucking argument is forgetting that 1. Gil can survive point-blank Excaliburs with his armor on, and nothing EMIYA has is even close to that in power, 2. Gil's armor is so tough that we don't even know if it can break to anything short of an Excalibur (the thing about his armor "almost giving out" in Fate is a mistranslation, Saber isn't even close) and 3. EMIYA takes a fucking year and a half to chant UBW and would get dumpstered before he could even namedrop it), Gil has the counter to every Servant, and he doesn't even need it to stomp them.

Well for my money I agree for the most part with Arch. Excepting one thing, sniping, if it's a sniper battle Gil's ass is toast because Archer actually has real skill in that regard.

Quote
1. Gil can survive point-blank Excaliburs with his armor on, and nothing EMIYA has is even close to that in power

Also Gil has Sha Nagba Imuru, so he'd see any sniping coming from a mile away. If it's Hrunting, he can just destroy it with his own weapons.

Again, for the health of this thread, Gil wins, every time.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: YOLF on July 24, 2014, 03:42:58 AM
He most certainly did not survive Saber cutting him in half with Excalibur during the Fate finale.

Sha Nagba Imuru is not something the canonical character has in his servant sheet in any way, so you can't really use it as a point in this argument, Chris.

And as was stated already, by a fair fight Gilgamesh should not be able to realistically lose against anyone. And no, he is not weighted down by his hubris and personal flaws in a fight as much as some people would say, but it is a fact that he has those weaknesses, and they are a significant thing to consider in the outcome of a fight against him.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 24, 2014, 04:16:47 AM
Yeah, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Archer could beat serious Gil, because essentially no-one can beat serious Gil. But, Gil is not serious very often, and Archer is very low on the list of "people who he's likely to respect enough to fight seriously", so Gil's ego is a big factor here.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 24, 2014, 08:33:59 AM
Chris if you can't be polite then please leave. This is not the place for it.

as for the topic. Feel free to correct me guys but legendary shields and armour are rarely (if ever since I can't recall any) made by humans and that is Gilgamesh's stipulation for having X or whatever. So I think sniping would work.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 24, 2014, 02:05:17 PM
Well, the standard armour that Gil wears is exceptionally strong in itself, although I think people are exaggerating it somewhat (Saber managed to kill him in Fate, after all). So, I doubt just any old attack would break it.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 24, 2014, 05:48:18 PM
Chris if you can't be polite then please leave. This is not the place for it.

as for the topic. Feel free to correct me guys but legendary shields and armour are rarely (if ever since I can't recall any) made by humans and that is Gilgamesh's stipulation for having X or whatever. So I think sniping would work.

Gil has every Noble Phantasm, including those of Divine nature. Thinking the opposite is the case is believing in fanon.

The reason people think he doesn't have Divine stuff is because he also has the "Root of human knowledge" (no, not THE Root), which gives him access to everything man-made (Which is why he has that FTL ship that can cross the universe in less than a second; Apparently Nasu Humans will invent that someday), and that he hates the gods. Again, yes, even if it's Divine, Gil has something with the same effect.

If it's a Noble Phantasm, Gil has something in his vault with the same effect.  Even if it's a paradox, or seemingly impossible (For example, the item is destroyed, or lost forever,

Well, the standard armour that Gil wears is exceptionally strong in itself, although I think people are exaggerating it somewhat (Saber managed to kill him in Fate, after all). So, I doubt just any old attack would break it.

Gil's armor isnt exactly exaggerated. It takes dozens of blows from B-strength Saber without a scratch (again, his armor "giving out" is a mistranslations), it increases his Magic Resistance and it gives him immunity to petrification.

And, again, literally nothing short of a point blank Excalibur (which, as we have established, EMIYA can't even project something close to) has done visible damage to it.

He most certainly did not survive Saber cutting him in half with Excalibur during the Fate finale.

Which was a point-blank A++ Noble Phantasm, something EMIYA can't even get close to emulate.

Sha Nagba Imuru is not something the canonical character has in his servant sheet in any way, so you can't really use it as a point in this argument, Chris.

Let me reiterate then: Gil displays mega-super-hyper awareness that allows him to see spells being built in someone's head and makes him able to seemingly read thoughts (Shirou guesses Gil's identity in his thoughts in Fate -> Gil immediately turns his way and acknowledges it).

And as was stated already, by a fair fight Gilgamesh should not be able to realistically lose against anyone. And no, he is not weighted down by his hubris and personal flaws in a fight as much as some people would say, but it is a fact that he has those weaknesses, and they are a significant thing to consider in the outcome of a fight against him.

And that is exactly what I'm striving for here; A fair fight between two characters (whereas the previous matchup ended with it being two characters against one). In a fair fight, EMIYA gets to use UBW unhindered and Gil isn't hampered by carelessness (You can even take Ea out of the equation if you believe that to be "unfair"). What happens? What happens with every Servant; An absolute steamroll by King Goldman.

Now can we not have Gil matchups in the future? Because this is what's gonna happen every time; Either Gil just steamrolls whatever it is, or he pulls out Item X, which you can't prove that he has a high chance of owning (IE exceeding 99.9%) and it turns out to be Opponent Y's weakness.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 24, 2014, 06:03:35 PM
And that is exactly what I'm striving for here; A fair fight between two characters (whereas the previous matchup ended with it being two characters against one). In a fair fight, EMIYA gets to use UBW unhindered and Gil isn't hampered by carelessness (You can even take Ea out of the equation if you believe that to be "unfair"). What happens? What happens with every Servant; An absolute steamroll by King Goldman.

Now can we not have Gil matchups in the future? Because this is what's gonna happen every time; Either Gil just steamrolls whatever it is, or he pulls out Item X, which you can't prove that he has a high chance of owning (IE exceeding 99.9%) and it turns out to be Opponent Y's weakness.

The problem is that your definition of "fair fight" isn't actually fair, because it biases the argument in favour of certain types of fighter. Someone who is really intelligent might be able to win a fight against a more powerful opponent by using their brain, and that is just as valid a strategy as anything else, yet it would be excluded by your logic. Similarly, if someone is exceptionally powerful but careless or egotistical, that could cause them to lose a fight that they should win based solely on power levels. Such victories are no less valid than any other.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 24, 2014, 06:03:54 PM
This is not who wins, it's how. Fair doesn't enter into the sphere of influence.

Gilgamesh doesn't possess everything, sorry. It has to a weapon possessed by humans or armour etcetera and even then the construction can bar Gilgamesh from getting it. This is a fact, see Avalon and Excalibur. So no, I'm not buying it.

again not who would win but how, and, frankly you're being hypocritical Chris demanding we never use Gil again when your first suggestion was Satoshi versus Gilgamesh.

as for the topic. It's clear that Archer is given at least a fighting chance by the rest of us and that Chris is the only blaring out Gilgamesh is super unbeatable so I think we should move on.

Arc versus Assassin (Extra)
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 24, 2014, 06:07:50 PM
This is not who wins, it's how. Fair doesn't enter into the sphere of influence.

Yeah, this, also. It's meant to be more about how Archer could win, not who would win a "fair" fight.

Quote
as for the topic. It's clear that Archer is given at least a fighting chance by the rest of us and that Chris is the only blaring out Gilgamesh is super unbeatable so I think we should move on.

Well, as with most fights involving Gil, the main deciding factor is how seriously Gil takes the fight. He's always going to win if he takes it seriously enough, and the only thing his opponent can really do is to try to encourage him not to act seriously, and to finish him off quickly enough that he can't go "oh shit" and pull out Ea (like he tried to do with Shirou in UBW). Archer is pretty good at the first, I suspect, but I'm not so sure if he's capable of the second.

Quote
Arc versus Assassin (Extra)

Doesn't Arc win that easily, by virtue of her "I get my opponent's power plus a bit extra" thing?
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 24, 2014, 06:11:21 PM
Shiki killed her dude. Power levels clearly mean nothing in the Nasuverse
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 24, 2014, 06:27:16 PM
Shiki killed her dude. Power levels clearly mean nothing in the Nasuverse

Well, except that he didn't. He temporarily disabled her, and mostly because she wasn't expecting it at all.

Plus, your question (as far as I can tell) was "how would Arc win against Extra Assassin?", and I don't think much discussion is necessary for that. I would expect her to win unless something odd happened.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 24, 2014, 06:28:33 PM
Gilgamesh doesn't possess everything, sorry. It has to a weapon possessed by humans or armour etcetera and even then the construction can bar Gilgamesh from getting it. This is a fact, see Avalon and Excalibur. So no, I'm not buying it.

Please do give your source on this. Please do, because you're full of shit. CCC confirms he has literally everything I listed, CCC is written by Nasu so your excuse of it not adhering to canon is completely useless.

That within are not merely riches, but his collection is the very "origins of human wisdom." That which is missing from the vault would be items produced with completely new concepts by a new human race, and items produced with extraterrestrial intelligence and technology. He is the original hero, so all heroes of various myths are derived from his legend. It may be a paradox, but he, as the original, must possess that which can be handed down as the Noble Phantasms possessed by those later heroes derived from him for that reason These weapons are technically nameless, the original Prototypes of the Noble Phantasms (すべての宝具の原型, Subete no Hōgu no Genkei?) and the common points before they became objects of faith that act as the foundations for their legends.

They are the original models of every legend, myth, and folklore.

The only part that could somehow result in your stupid fanon is that Gil cannot recognize certain things that happen to be Divine upon first sight (Excalibur, Avalon, Vasavi Shakti).

Gilgamesh makes references to wishing to obtain Excalibur and Kavacha&Kundala It is simply so that, such as with Vasavi Shakti, that he cannot tell if something corresponds to the treasures in his vault. Karna's legend records that he "has" the spear, but there is no description of it "being used." It does not exist in his eyes due to never having been described, so he wishes to obtain it.

Basically, he has the abilities of those Divine items in his vault, he just doesn't have the specific item. As in somewhere deep in Gil's vault there's another sword that's better at promising victory, a rock that can phase in and out of physical planes and another, different-looking spear that can kill Gods.





again not who would win but how, and, frankly you're being hypocritical Chris demanding we never use Gil again when your first suggestion was Satoshi versus Gilgamesh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke)

Blatant fucking bait.


as for the topic. It's clear that Archer is given at least a fighting chance by the rest of us and that Chris is the only blaring out Gilgamesh is super unbeatable so I think we should move on.

I'm aware how much you enjoy masturbatory Gil bashing, the problem is that you're stupider than a sack of rotten potatoes.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: KAIZA on July 24, 2014, 06:41:48 PM
OK, Chris, that's enough. I think it's better that you leave this thread, else I'll have to start handing warnings. Again.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 24, 2014, 06:48:31 PM
Whatever. It's not like this doesn't happen with every lantz thread ever. I leave you with this.

http://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/10/26/entry-92-fear-and-leopard-print/ (http://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/10/26/entry-92-fear-and-leopard-print/)

Gilgamesh: That Karna, such divine might even with two of his trump cards sealed. What an irritating man. It’s a shame about the problem with his Master. There’s no way that sack of meat can grant him his full power. Do you know, mongrel? That spear he has cannot be used by anyone, an article of rare beauty none have ever laid eyes upon. Which means that, though legend records that he “has” it, there is no description of it “being used.” Consequently, in my eyes that spear does not exist. As it is something that has never been described, I don’t know whether it corresponds to any of my treasures. A god-killing martial art, truth or falsehood — it will be most interesting to determine that going forward.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on July 24, 2014, 07:14:43 PM
Quote
Shiki killed her dude. Power levels clearly mean nothing in the Nasuverse

Do you even Tsukihime?

He had MEoDP. Li Shun Wen has just martial arts.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on July 24, 2014, 07:33:04 PM

Gilgamesh doesn't possess everything, sorry. It has to a weapon possessed by humans or armour etcetera and even then the construction can bar Gilgamesh from getting it. This is a fact, see Avalon and Excalibur. So no, I'm not buying it.

Quote from: food
As per CCC, Gilgamesh WOULD have the prototype of Excalibur and Avalon.

As long as said Noble Phantasm was held by a Hero, Gilgamesh already has it. Even if Gilgamesh shouldn't have it, it will be retroactively added, because all Heroes are derivatives of Gilgamesh.

The kick is whether Gilgamesh knew he has it. As Karna's battle showed, he does not have full knowledge of the content of the vault (won't know what the prototype is if historical records are scarce).
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 24, 2014, 07:38:02 PM
We've moved on Umbra, I don't care about AU Gilgamesh.

and Katsura, my point was power doesn't mean anything in the Nasuverse. And yes I'm one of the few people who actually read both novels 100% so I do Tsukihime. And the thing I call into question is how she got jumped. That said it's a discussion for another time.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 24, 2014, 07:41:18 PM
We've moved on Umbra, I don't care about canon!Gilgamesh.

.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on July 24, 2014, 08:22:28 PM
Shiki killed her dude. Power levels clearly mean nothing in the Nasuverse

Li doesn't have MEoDP. He sneaks up on Arc and destroys her organs with a punch, and she regens then turns him into a bloody smear.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 24, 2014, 09:31:44 PM
Perhaps true, you could be far less stern about it.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on July 25, 2014, 01:32:13 PM
Quote
and Katsura, my point was power doesn't mean anything in the Nasuverse. And yes I'm one of the few people who actually read both novels 100% so I do Tsukihime. And the thing I call into question is how she got jumped. That said it's a discussion for another time.

It still means something because without MEoDP you ain't anything against Arcueid unless you are Gilgamesh. And Shiki still gets stomped because killing merely weakened her.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 25, 2014, 03:41:40 PM
Lishuwen's arms would literally fall off before he did anything resembling lasting damage to Arc.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 25, 2014, 05:36:08 PM
Rather rigid thinking on the part of both of you, however, fine. I'll yield since it's pointless to continue this conversation no matter how interesting I thought discussion might be.

next up

Ayako versus Shinji
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 25, 2014, 06:37:31 PM
Well, under the assumption that Shinji doesn't have access to Rider or any other magical help, then I guess Ayako would probably be able to defeat him by shooting him with a bow and arrow from range. If they get close up, he'd likely be stronger, although not certainly. If he has the Book of False Attendant, he almost certainly wins by magic if they get close, but potentially not at range.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 25, 2014, 06:54:20 PM
Actually, in hollow it's noted that Ayako is skilled with a halberd, so close range is likely her win.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 25, 2014, 07:14:22 PM
Rather rigid thinking on the part of both of you

The fuck? Rigid has nothing to do with it. It's simple fact that there's only about 10 Nasuverse characters who wouldn't get shrekked by Arc without issue, and three of those are because they have Mystic Eyes of Killing The Shit Out of People (and even those don't work on her entirely).

Ayako versus Shinji

Shinji wins if he has the Book of False Attendant, otherwise I'd give it to Ayako.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 25, 2014, 09:51:29 PM
Actually, in hollow it's noted that Ayako is skilled with a halberd, so close range is likely her win.

Well, only if she happens to have a halberd to hand at the time....

Rather rigid thinking on the part of both of you

The fuck? Rigid has nothing to do with it. It's simple fact that there's only about 10 Nasuverse characters who wouldn't get shrekked by Arc without issue, and three of those are because they have Mystic Eyes of Killing The Shit Out of People (and even those don't work on her entirely).

Yeah, I have to agree with this. There are few people who stand a chance against Arc, she's just too strong.

Quote
Ayako versus Shinji

Shinji wins if he has the Book of False Attendant, otherwise I'd give it to Ayako.

Yeah, that sounds about right. The Book of False Attendant isn't that powerful, but it's probably enough to take down Ayako, even if you assume he can't call on Rider for some reason. The only possible way Ayako could win if he has it is if she keeps out of his range.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 26, 2014, 12:26:59 PM
Actually, in hollow it's noted that Ayako is skilled with a halberd, so close range is likely her win.

Well, only if she happens to have a halberd to hand at the time....

I consulted Jack, who's read pretty much every scene dozens of times for the sake of translation, about this. The only mention of a halberd in Hollow is when Liz uses one.

Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: The Man With All The Cute Boats on July 26, 2014, 06:39:22 PM
Naginata

it's that scene at the flower shop with Lancer
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 26, 2014, 11:21:50 PM
Ok my bad, correct category, wrong exact weapon. I am however correct in spirit, Ayako has a pole arm weapon and the skill to use it. As such I think she'd pull that bad boy out and that would decide the fight and frankly I can't see a skill Shinji has or even with the false attendant how he would win considering this.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 26, 2014, 11:31:55 PM
She might own a pole arm, I very much doubt she takes it with her everywhere she goes. So, it depends on whether or not the fight is one she has the chance to prepare for.

Even then, if Shinji has the book he probably could beat her. That shadow blade wall was pretty ineffective against Shirou, but I would expect it to work somewhat better against Ayako.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 27, 2014, 12:52:18 AM
The premise invokes the use of all their tools at the beginning of the debate. If she had that weapon I'd give it to her, Shinji is, well not exactly bright. He's smart but his ego has him screw up a lot
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Brahmastra on July 27, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Ok my bad, correct category, wrong exact weapon. I am however correct in spirit, Ayako has a pole arm weapon and the skill to use it. As such I think she'd pull that bad boy out and that would decide the fight and frankly I can't see a skill Shinji has or even with the false attendant how he would win considering this.

Minus the part where the shadow blades he can use with the False Attendant would literally cut her to bits.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on July 29, 2014, 03:43:50 AM
Don't buy it, Ayako has obviously more training then Shirou. Moving on Gilgamesh versus Darkseid.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 29, 2014, 04:06:28 AM
Don't buy it, Ayako has obviously more training then Shirou.

Yeah, but the distinction is not "training", it's the fact that Shirou is a magus (albeit a crap one) and Ayako isn't....

When Shinji uses the blades on Shirou, even if you fail to avoid them they just do nothing. I wouldn't expect the same outcome for a total non-magus.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 22, 2014, 01:25:19 PM
My favorite Saber (Mordred) vs only Saber I genuinely dislike (Nero).
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 24, 2014, 02:35:28 AM
How would mordred lose?
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 09:26:26 AM
The question is, how hard she gets rekted (I probably want to take it out mentally on Break's Nerofagging).

Clarent Blood Arthur is only slightly weaker to Balmung, and other than it so far stronger swords we have seen were Excalibur and Ea. Maybe just using Clarent would suffice.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 24, 2014, 04:09:32 PM
Does Nero get a beam in extra or ccc?
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 05:13:48 PM
Nay, just that "Reality Marble".
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on November 24, 2014, 06:00:15 PM
I have serious doubts one way or another on either of them winning but historically at least Mordred is a fully trained soldier, Nero was not, however Nero might be far more skilled than history due to do her added traits (no I do not mean her boobs)

judging by Extra's stats I'd say the whole thing winds up as a coin flip.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 24, 2014, 06:04:51 PM
What. I know you're serious, but what? Nero has set stats, I'm fairly positive we're not factoring in protag powerup or hakuno best master.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 06:13:50 PM
Quote
judging by Extra's stats I'd say the whole thing winds up as a coin flip.

Mordred

Strength:   B+   Mana:   B
Endurance: A   Luck:   D
Agility: B   N. Phantasm:   A+

Nero

Strength:   D   Mana: B
Endurance: D   Luck: A
Agility: A   N. Phantasm: B

---

Agility means nothing if Mordred was shown to survive repeatedly injuries which would put out Nero out of commission. And the difference in Agility is only one rank. Also Instinct B.

Basically, Mordred is stronger than Shirou!Saber and has one of best Anti-Army Noble Phantasms, not that much weaker than Excalibur.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 24, 2014, 06:33:01 PM
What. I know you're serious, but what? Nero has set stats, I'm fairly positive we're not factoring in protag powerup or hakuno best master.

Nero doesn't have "set stats" in the original Extra, her stats change according to how you play the game. I assume there are real stats for her out there somewhere, though, although I don't know where they come from.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 06:37:42 PM
Fate/Extra material.

They are canon stats for her.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 24, 2014, 06:54:04 PM
What. I know you're serious, but what? Nero has set stats, I'm fairly positive we're not factoring in protag powerup or hakuno best master.

Nero doesn't have "set stats" in the original Extra, her stats change according to how you play the game. I assume there are real stats for her out there somewhere, though, although I don't know where they come from.
It's a really dumb idea to factor in Hakuno unless specifically stated that Hakuno is the master. Otherwise, casko has an EX in every single stat and punches out Herakles.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 06:56:39 PM
No, she cannot in-game, even if you grinded to LVL99.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 24, 2014, 07:56:04 PM
My point still stands that using extra hakuno stats instead of the canon ones is a monumentally stupid assumption.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 24, 2014, 08:26:12 PM
My point still stands that using extra hakuno stats instead of the canon ones is a monumentally stupid assumption.

Not if you don't know that the canon stats even exist, as Lantz obviously didn't....
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 24, 2014, 08:35:57 PM
But he claims to have an understanding of canon, so I was just going off that, and assumed he was being dumb instead of ignorant, since he claims not to be.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
Even TM wiki has those stats (though they made typo in case of Mordred's NP. It's A+ instead of A).
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 24, 2014, 09:58:40 PM
To be fair, though, TM wiki is not known for being overly reliable.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 10:01:24 PM
These are literaly ripped from sources.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 24, 2014, 10:50:03 PM
Sure, but my point is that he might not even bother to check.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 24, 2014, 11:13:36 PM
Then he shouldn't get involved if he can't even be bothered to check the absolute most basic sources
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2014, 11:53:51 PM
Power levels are serious business.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on November 25, 2014, 09:47:38 PM
Actually Mike I was referring to the canon stats. Having played the game Nero makes remarks that indicate her true strength magic and so on. I own extra in psp which includes a bunch of material. Having played it so many times I know her stats, although personally Archer's and casters remarks are funnier.

Bdoom don't rudely assume things. I know canon
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 25, 2014, 10:06:19 PM
I still maintain that 50 % chances for Nero is far too generous.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 25, 2014, 10:49:16 PM
Actually Mike I was referring to the canon stats. Having played the game Nero makes remarks that indicate her true strength magic and so on. I own extra in psp which includes a bunch of material. Having played it so many times I know her stats, although personally Archer's and casters remarks are funnier.

Bdoom don't rudely assume things. I know canon
But he claims to have an understanding of canon, so I was just going off that, and assumed he was being dumb instead of ignorant, since he claims not to be.
I don't see the contradiction
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: lantzblades on November 27, 2014, 09:16:56 PM
@Kat

you're welcome to that assertion, I'm simply considering the balance of things here, Mordred isn't famous for much beyond King Arthur's death, Nero is, not by much but has more to draw on, that aside one would assume Nero, this one, has proper Roman training in combat, they were not weak or pathetic in the least. Between the stats and the unknown factors I have to persist that it's fairly even here.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Lycodrake on November 27, 2014, 10:30:25 PM
Nero might have military training, but I don't think Nero ever went up against armies alone, let alone with a beam-sword, like Mordred did in Nasuverse.

Nero is most known for burning things, be it Christians as torches or possibly part of Rome itself. Nasu-verse Nero might claim to have emulated Herakles by wrestling a lion, but it wasn't the Nemean Lion by any means.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 27, 2014, 11:47:22 PM
Mordred was a famous Arthurian figure back in even relatively earlier myths of the cycle (before Lancelot was added. Lancelot even 'stole' that part of legend when Mordred has consensual affair with Guinevere).
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Lycodrake on November 27, 2014, 11:50:16 PM
Dang French and their self-insert. =P
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 28, 2014, 12:28:02 AM
Pretty much original lineup was Arthur, Guinevere, Gawain, Bedivere, Kai (who was actually good combatant back then), Mordred. Merlin got added somewhat later since originally Bedivere was had some knowledge of magic, but he was enough early addition to be in Welsh version.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on November 28, 2014, 03:27:20 PM
Nero is most known for burning things, be it Christians as torches or possibly part of Rome itself. Nasu-verse Nero might claim to have emulated Herakles by wrestling a lion, but it wasn't the Nemean Lion by any means.

IIRC the lion was also trained. So not that good of a wrestler either.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 28, 2014, 03:58:35 PM
Wrestling is fake.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Puck-Chan on November 28, 2014, 05:48:48 PM
Wrestling is fake.

It's still real to me, dammit! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI)
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 28, 2014, 05:53:31 PM
Silly Americans and their pretend sports.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kotomine_Rin on November 28, 2014, 08:51:36 PM
The pain they feel for the masses's entertainment is real enough for me to have some respect for them.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on November 28, 2014, 09:26:21 PM
Now something different

Gawain (with, and without Numeral of Saint) vs Siegfried.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on November 28, 2014, 11:22:24 PM
With he wins, without he loses. Armor of fafnir can't block with numeral, but without it gawain's not dealing enough damage.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: YOLF on November 30, 2014, 03:10:01 AM
Unless Numeral increases Gawain's actual stats and not just their value like additional pluses, it makes literally no difference and Siegfried won't get hurt either way, if that's all you're taking into account. But Excalibur Galantine has a high enough rank that Armor Of Fafnir doesn't nullify attacks from it.

Though, it still gives him X armor value the attacks have to get through anyways.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 01, 2014, 01:22:12 PM
Hisui vs Gawain.

Who is WORSE cook?
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 01, 2014, 03:12:31 PM
Hisui, I think. From what I can tell, Gawain's cooking is basically equivalent to just eating the raw ingredients. Hisui actively makes things worse.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kotomine_Rin on December 02, 2014, 04:07:52 AM
But even if her cooking is terribad, would you really be able to say no to her face?
After all, a real man NEVER refuses food offered by a nice lady.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 02, 2014, 04:39:01 AM
Real men are suicidal, duly noted.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kotomine_Rin on December 02, 2014, 04:41:56 AM
Just look at Shirou. A man among men.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 02, 2014, 05:10:43 AM
Just look at Shirou. A man among men.

Yeah, but the girls Shirou knows can actually cook. Except Taiga, and, as I recall, the one time Taiga actually makes an effort to cook, Shirou rushes home to try to stop her....
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 02, 2014, 02:33:06 PM
Just look at Shirou. A man among men.
i don't think Shirou would eat Hisui's cooking.
Considering putting oyster sauce on his yams physically hurt him.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 04, 2014, 10:16:34 PM
Kiritsugu vs Kairi, scenario outside of HGW so no Avalon for the former.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 04, 2014, 10:53:03 PM
Straight fight?
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 04, 2014, 11:04:55 PM
Generally what a freelancer would do against another freelancer. Both don't play fair.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 04, 2014, 11:17:03 PM
I think kiritsugu then, assuming prep.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: LostHanyou on December 17, 2014, 09:21:35 AM
Arnold Schwarzenegger as the Terminator lands in an alien-infested Nostromo from the movie Alien. He must go through an alien queen and a number of regular aliens before the ship reaches earths orbit.  Does he succeed?
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 17, 2014, 04:16:14 PM
*cough* Type-Moon *cough*
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 17, 2014, 10:06:54 PM
Who's this?
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 17, 2014, 11:12:24 PM
Some random almost lurker? I don't recognize him.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 17, 2014, 11:50:28 PM
Given it was brought up in Apo thread.

Mordred vs Rider (Shinji and Sakura ones separately discussed)
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 17, 2014, 11:52:39 PM
Some random almost lurker? I don't recognize him.

He's a guy who was on the old DSM, and who hasn't been around for ages.

Given it was brought up in Apo thread.

Mordred vs Rider (Shinji and Sakura ones separately discussed)

Well, for one thing, how powerful is Mordred's master? It does matter. For example, Rider under Sakura could give Saber under Shirou a good fight and quite possibly defeat her, but she would lose pretty easily against Saber under Rin.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 18, 2014, 12:08:08 AM
He is pretty good, a freelancer necromancer that uses firearms and ammo crafted with his magecraft from a legitimate magus family, so he inherited his Crest through normal means.

As for stats:

Shirou!Saber:

Strength:   B  Endurance: C Agility: C Mana: B Luck: B   N. Phantasm: C

Rin!Saber:

Strength:   A  Endurance: B Agility: B Mana: A Luck: A+ N. Phantasm: A++

Mordred:

Strength:   B+  Endurance: A Agility: B Mana: B Luck: D N. Phantasm: A+

For reference Mordred has an anti-unit C rank NP, anti-army beamu A+, Instinct B, Prana Burst A, Battle Continuation B, Magic Resistance B, Riding B and Charisma C-
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 18, 2014, 11:08:12 PM
Hmm, well, it sounds like Mordred would almost certainly beat Shinji Rider. I really have no clue about Sakura Rider, though. We don't see her fight very much, and I have no idea of what Mordred is actually capable of.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 18, 2014, 11:21:09 PM
Mordred is a based badass, she'd probably demolish Sakura Rider.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: LostHanyou on December 19, 2014, 12:00:49 AM
*cough* Type-Moon *cough*
Sorry, forgot The Terminator and Alien weren't made by Type-Moon for a minute there.  Small lapse in thought.

Who's this?
The hero DSM needs.

More relevantly, Mordred and Rider are tied in the fashion competition - Mordred's armor certainly looks cooler than Rider's stripper outfit, but how can one compete against sweater Rider?  Certainly not with a mere tube top!  However, in battle it probably depends on if Clarent can beat Bellerophon, though Rider also technically has a lot more versatility with the mount.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 20, 2014, 02:03:04 PM
So far people at BL with exception of Daiki are generally giving the win to Mordred even if it would not be probably an easy victory.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 20, 2014, 05:44:36 PM
Unless he gae bolgs her, then double ko.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 20, 2014, 06:58:15 PM
Dude, where is Lancer here? I don't recall it being brought up.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 20, 2014, 08:05:28 PM
Fuck, you're right. Where'd lancer come from? Opps. Yeah, Rider should be fucked.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 21, 2014, 04:44:57 PM
Well, Bellerophon is pretty powerful, and Saber couldn't do jack shit to Rider on Pegasus without using Excalibur, so I think it would likely come down to a duel between Bellerophon and Mordred's sword. Which is not something I can really comment on, because I know next-to-nothing about Mordred's sword....
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: SINIB on December 22, 2014, 01:36:05 AM
It's an A+ beamu
So they'd probably cancel eachother out
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 22, 2014, 03:20:15 AM
I don't think it's really possible for them to "cancel out". Either Pegasus hits (which means the target dies) or it gets disintegrated before it can hit.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Panda on December 22, 2014, 01:47:54 PM
I think it means that Pegasus gets wrecked, but takes the entirety of the blast, leaving Rider more or less unharmed, aside from the mandatory clothing damage and some slight singeing.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 22, 2014, 02:23:28 PM
Rider is at disadvantage in beam clash because of the range, if Pegasus tanks it means Rider is also hit.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kaze on December 22, 2014, 03:13:43 PM
I can't agree on that point. Bellerophon vs Excalibur wasn't retard charge, they were pretty close to the same in sheer power. If there was even a chance of Rider making it through to beat whoever was beamu-ing her, then she would presumably come out just fine so long as Peggy survived.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 22, 2014, 03:51:52 PM

A+ vs A++. Not the same.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Umbra of Chaos on December 22, 2014, 04:00:27 PM
Yes, that's why he said pretty close and not exactly the same.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 22, 2014, 05:34:55 PM
I think it means that Pegasus gets wrecked, but takes the entirety of the blast, leaving Rider more or less unharmed, aside from the mandatory clothing damage and some slight singeing.

That would require a very specific level of damage, though, I think. Pegasus' defence is far above Rider's.

I can't agree on that point. Bellerophon vs Excalibur wasn't retard charge, they were pretty close to the same in sheer power. If there was even a chance of Rider making it through to beat whoever was beamu-ing her, then she would presumably come out just fine so long as Peggy survived.

Well, Rider didn't know what abilities Saber had. But, HF shows that Bellerophon is capable of defeating Excalibur if she has a little help from Shirou, so they can't be that massively mis-matched.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 22, 2014, 06:00:36 PM
>Little help

Rho Aias is not exactly little help.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 23, 2014, 01:10:07 AM
It is made by Shirou, though, and it's not the full version, so I imagine it's less significant than people sometimes make out.
Title: Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
Post by: Kat on December 23, 2014, 01:19:12 AM
Dunno, GARM!Shirou's Projection cannot be spammed but it's good nonetheless. Without Rho Aias Bellephoron would be quickly extinguished and Alter's Excaliblast is the same in power as any Arturia's, just the former can spam it.