Dark Side of the Moon
Type Moon => General Discussion => Topic started by: lantzblades on April 16, 2013, 06:01:00 PM
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Everyone has one and no i'm not talking about the shipping wars people engage in with characters who've never spoken to one another. I mean that in stories like Fate and Tsukihime with multiple paths and endings which do you subscribe to as the ends for you?
In my case
Fate stay night
Fate's true end (NOT LE)
it's Saber and Shirou, a basic action story with an an underlying warmth. It's a simple even handed story without complications or guilt involved.
Tsukihime
Kohaku's route (I forget the title)
Though I like Tsukihime alot Kohaku's route was the most impactful (like i syringe to the neck) Shiki X Kohaku
Fate Extra
MCXCaster
the other two servants are ok but caster just seemed to be the most fun and the one who belonged with the dude, I haven't finished extra as FemC so I can't speak no her but likely archerXFemC
so that's mine, what's yours?
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Well, I've not played Extra or Tsukihime, so I can't comment on those, but my answer for Fate/Stay Night is obviously HF True.
Simply put, aside from the fact that I much prefer Sakura x Shirou to the other two pairings, HF True is also the only ending in which Sakura is certain to have the chance to live a normal and happy life. Whilst I would like to think that Rin and Shirou would find a way to save her in the other two routes, until that is confirmed I am not overly fond of them. Further, HF True is IMO the happiest ending overall, since it is basically UBW Good but with Sakura saved, Ilya getting a less horrible death (and some happiness prior to that) and Rider swapped for Saber (which IMO is a good swap, although I doubt you would agree...).
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you are right, i would not consider it good or even, I don't think HF is bad, i'm just not a fan of the ton of stupid all the characters carried around.
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Perhaps, but I'm not a fan of Sakura being left to be worm-raped to death whilst her big sister buggers off to London and forgets her, so....
Plus, Nasu basically said that HF True was canon, because he said a universe which Zelretch visited would become true, and Zelretch visits HF True :P
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you need not be so back biting dude.
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Well, that is just my genuine opinion of the other two routes, or at least the way a lot of people portray them.
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the author didn't say that she dies etcetera so that's not an issue you should have with canon, writers sure, canon no.
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No, he doesn't, but he also doesn't either say or imply that she gets rescued, and given her situation, and how hard it is to free her randomly, that is rather bad.
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that means it's open to interpetation
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My personal canons are all mixed up. I can't decide between most of them so there are a lot of ties, but mostly:
FSN: UBW True.
Tsukihime: Hisui True.
Nothing to comment on hollow ataraxia and Kagetsu Tohya because lolfandiscssortaharemroute neither Kara no Kyoukai.
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my thought on KnK are simple, do not touch that story fanfic writers, you can't do it any better
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that means it's open to interpetation
Well, yes, true, but I find it hard to be sure she'll be saved. Plus, even if she is she still has a bit of a mess to deal with mentally, particularly in UBW.
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that's your doubts, your doubts aren't canon.
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Well, no, but Nasu hardly makes it look easy to free her....
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Yeah, with the whole issue of having Zouken's worm in her heart...
But I like to believe that the was saved in the big conflict created by Rin and Waver post-Fate and UBW. Better late than never, though sooner would be nicer.
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Yeah, with the whole issue of having Zouken's worm in her heart...
Yeah, not to mention that Rin and Shirou don't even know she's in trouble, and she's not likely to tell them....
But I like to believe that the was saved in the big conflict created by Rin and Waver post-Fate and UBW. Better late than never, though sooner would be nicer.
Yeah, I would like to believe that, if not sooner. Certainly I think that conflict would result in either her freedom or her death, if it hasn't happened already, because I don't see Zouken ignoring it. But, whether it would be the first is not clear, and even if it is it's not clear that will be enough to give her a happy life, given how old she will be by then, how long she'll have been under Zouken's control (it's also likely that this will shorten her life somewhat) and the fact that Shirou is with Rin.
Plus, honestly, I see no advantages in the UBW route over HF, aside from Saber's survival in UBW Good (and even that doesn't compensate for Rider not getting a chance to live). Rider is dead, Ilya dies horribly and Shirou is with Rin rather than Sakura, resulting likely in emotional damage to Sakura that will be hard to fix.
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Brand-new headcanon:
Since Shirou's UBW is different than Archer's in the homonym route, HF's Shirou's UBW is a forest of Sakura Trees in full bloom, with petals falling 24/7 and a clear blue sky alongside the words. Because why not?
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Lol, I've thought of that before.
It seems a bit literal though, honestly. My suspicion is that HF Shirou's UBW would be very similar in nature to UBW Shirou's, because they both have a generally positive outlook on life and are secure in their decisions. The chant he uses to bring it into existance will definitely be different, though....
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Ilya lives in fate, hence why i like it aside from my previous reasons
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Well, yeah, I can understand that, at least. Fate is probably the ending that has the potential to be happiest overall (Sakura being saved, Ilya living, potentially Shirou pairing up with Sakura or Rin or meeting Saber again), but it's also the ending that has the most potential to go horribly wrong (Sakura and Ilya dying, Rin going mad, Shirou ending up Archer-like).
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Rin crazy? wut?
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Rin cares a lot about Sakura. Hence why she sorta ignores the "rule" of not associating with her sister by going to the archery club to look at her, etc. If Sakura is not saved/ends up dying and Rin discovers it, she'll have one heck of a breadown along the lines of "If I'd knew it from the start, I could've saved her!".
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I did a thing on that once, wouldn't say crazy, guilty yeah, depressed of course but not crazy...
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Well, "mad" can also mean "a helluva angry", so there's still a possibility!
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well yeah i guess you're right Gab
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Rin cares a lot about Sakura. Hence why she sorta ignores the "rule" of not associating with her sister by going to the archery club to look at her, etc. If Sakura is not saved/ends up dying and Rin discovers it, she'll have one heck of a breadown along the lines of "If I'd knew it from the start, I could've saved her!".
Yeah, particularly if she doesn't have a relationship with Shirou, and even more so if Shirou turns into Archer as a result.
I did a thing on that once, wouldn't say crazy, guilty yeah, depressed of course but not crazy...
Well, it depends how you define "crazy". Certainly she wouldn't be happy, at least, and would be highly unlikely to ever gain any kind of happiness.
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Personal canon? This is kinda dicey because the different Type-MOON stories all have their own thematic messages and shit that should ideally be taken in from the work as a whole and I really feel that but if it comes down to stating preferences then I'm game as all get-on-out.
Kara no Kyoukai: N/A. Self-explanatory. Linear story is linear. It's a book, take it for what it is.
Tsukihime: Yumiduka Satsuki route (Near Side). The "Holy Balls, Guys, the Nutso Factor has Shot Through the Roof" Quotient went up to eleven and raised the bar like a reverse limbo contest. Roa and Nrvnqsr team up, the inexplicable anti supernatural defense cannon on top of Tohno Manor that howitzer'd Chaos Beasts through Misaki City, Reality Marble vs Reality Marble duking it out, and the distincltly bittersweet tinged true ending put it a cut above the rest of the stories told in Tsuki. You can tell that Nasu and Tak pulled out all the stops for this one and set a brick down on the acceleration for this one. It was unapologetically awesome bar none.
Fate/stay night: Much as I loved me the Ayako route - what with her being deliciously girl-next-door, it being remarkably relate-able due to the "muggle gets dragged into a supernatural secret world and must cope or die trying", the hilarious and vaguely definitely conclusion to Ayako and Rin's bet, and the more frequent appearances of the Track Girls (loves me some Track Girls, too) - I just have to give it to the Illya route.
It had just the right blend of kickass, controversy, the collar-heating H-scenes (most notably that one. You know, the optional 4p) and questions. It really felt like a natural ending to Fate/stay night as a game, but not necessarily the be-all-end-all of what should happen to these characters. It really respected itself and the game as a whole, if that makes any sense. Again, as with the other example you could really pick up on that Mushroom gave this one his all.
Defender's, AKA Stray Servant, was...okay. Even though she kind of felt like dead weight in it some times. In order to fully appreciate her story you have to read Fate/Negative Zero in order to give it a true meaning of context. But let's not put the cart before the horse here (and give credit to Urobuchi for writing it in the first place), this is most soytently not a good thing when being part of what should be a work that should be able to be enjoyed standalone without having to cross-reference obscure lore that wasn't even released at the time and written by a completely different author. Bad Kinoko.
Caster's route I just wasn't emotionally invested in. Not because of some misguided notion that I was NTRing Kuzuki (who has the personality of a dump truck and coincidentally happens to hit like one), but because it just felt......well.........dunno...like it was trying too hard.
Fate/EXTRA: Don't give a shit either way. I'm cool with any of the Servants, though I'm still in the middle/first 25% of a Saber playthrough.
Mahoyoyoyodawg: How am I supposed to have an opinion of a story that isn't even finished yet?
Alice end all the way homesizzle. :X
Fire Girl: Not even translated yet. Can't say.
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Personal canon? This is kinda dicey because the different Type-MOON stories all have their own thematic messages and shit that should ideally be taken in from the work as a whole and I really feel that but if it comes down to stating preferences then I'm game as all get-on-out.
Kara no Kyoukai: N/A. Self-explanatory. Linear story is linear. It's a book, take it for what it is.
Tsukihime: Yumiduka Satsuki route (Near Side). The "Holy Balls, Guys, the Nutso Factor has Shot Through the Roof" Quotient went up to eleven and raised the bar like a reverse limbo contest. Roa and Nrvnqsr team up, the inexplicable anti supernatural defense cannon on top of Tohno Manor that howitzer'd Chaos Beasts through Misaki City, Reality Marble vs Reality Marble duking it out, and the distincltly bittersweet tinged true ending put it a cut above the rest of the stories told in Tsuki. You can tell that Nasu and Tak pulled out all the stops for this one and set a brick down on the acceleration for this one. It was unapologetically awesome bar none.
Fate/stay night: Much as I loved me the Ayako route - what with her being deliciously girl-next-door, it being remarkably relate-able due to the "muggle gets dragged into a supernatural secret world and must cope or die trying", the hilarious and vaguely definitely conclusion to Ayako and Rin's bet, and the more frequent appearances of the Track Girls (loves me some Track Girls, too) - I just have to give it to the Illya route.
It had just the right blend of kickass, controversy, the collar-heating H-scenes (most notably that one. You know, the optional 4p) and questions. It really felt like a natural ending to Fate/stay night as a game, but not necessarily the be-all-end-all of what should happen to these characters. It really respected itself and the game as a whole, if that makes any sense. Again, as with the other example you could really pick up on that Mushroom gave this one his all.
Defender's, AKA Stray Servant, was...okay. Even though she kind of felt like dead weight in it some times. In order to fully appreciate her story you have to read Fate/Negative Zero in order to give it a true meaning of context. But let's not put the cart before the horse here (and give credit to Urobuchi for writing it in the first place), this is most soytently not a good thing when being part of what should be a work that should be able to be enjoyed standalone without having to cross-reference obscure lore that wasn't even released at the time and written by a completely different author. Bad Kinoko.
Caster's route I just wasn't emotionally invested in. Not because of some misguided notion that I was NTRing Kuzuki (who has the personality of a dump truck and coincidentally happens to hit like one), but because it just felt......well.........dunno...like it was trying too hard.
Fate/EXTRA: Don't give a shit either way. I'm cool with any of the Servants, though I'm still in the middle/first 25% of a Saber playthrough.
Mahoyoyoyodawg: How am I supposed to have an opinion of a story that isn't even finished yet?
Alice end all the way homesizzle. :X
Fire Girl: Not even translated yet. Can't say.
best.post. EVER!
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I'm agreeing with lantz, Black. Your post is definitely... interesting. I read it with Vince Offer's voice in my head.
I don't really see the point in asking anyone's canon, because it seems to be to be the same question as "what's your favorite route?" which seems to be the same question as "what's your favorite pairing?" Well, I'll answer anyway.
For KnK, like mentioned above, there are no "routes" to speak of, and there is only that story, which actually may possibly be my favorite Nasu work overall (certainly parts of Tsukihime and F/SN beat it, but not the whole of either game).
My canon routes, strangely, don't really line up with my favorite routes in the game. I actually sort of pick the Fate route and Arc's True End, despite my favorite F/SN route being UBW (I actually really do like Arc's route in Tsukihime, because the romance in that one seemed genuine to me, and not just like "oh, we need to have sex or you're going to die").
My reasoning is thus: Due to the nature of a Kinoko Nasu multi-route VN, there will always be one route that establishes the setting and introduces the major characters and themes. Then you have the middle routes that start to complicate the characterization of the characters and revealing backstory on others while still keeping more or less the same theme. Then you have the final route(s), which totally upsets everything that was established before, takes the remaining minor characters or introduces brand-spanking new ones, and uses them to twist the original thematic tone of the game towards something much darker and more depressing, upsetting the uplifting conclusions drawn in the previous two-thirds.
Then, Nasu will give that final route the happiest ending of them all. Because fuck consistency.
So, I can't take the final routes as canon, because they cannot stand alone at all. They require a read-through, and not just in summary, of the first and middle routes. Ditto for the middle routes; they stand up a little better than the end, but still benefit from the first route establishing the universe.
That's more or less why I think the first route of any given game is canonical.
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Well hello there!
Since this forum is still low on traffic I beleive no one would mind a necro.
My "personal canon", huh?
Well, lemme see:
Fate/Stay Night:
Heavens Feel - True End
It generally has this "the book ends" kind of feeling.
All the secrets are unveiled.
Shirou develops into a whole person (... in a puppet body)
The secret heroine whose fate remained forgotten would finally earn her salvation
Many if not all the interpersonnal tensions are solved (Rin-Sakura, Shirou-Archer, Kiritsugu-Illya, Zouken's wish, Kotomine's dillemma)
Reall, the only exceptions are Saber and Shinji. And who cares about Shinji...
I'm also sure Saber partially made her ammends with her situation and it only needs a bit more stimmuli to drop her wish. Maybe in the next summoning.
Oh well, the moral of this story was that Shirou cannot save everyone. So I guess this is it.
Tsukihime:
Ciel Route- True End
This is purely for personal preference.
It was easily the best ending, IMO.
What? You expected more lines?
Well, sorry to disappoint.
I also didn't play with Fate/Extra so I can't answer.
And from what I know the "'routes" only differ somewhat in their epilogues.
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Yeah, honestly, when there are only a handful of threads, I don't think Necroing is an issue. And, honestly, if you have something actually relevant to say then my personal opinion is that it doesn't matter how old the thread is. I only care about Necroing when it's to say something inane like "cool story".
As for the post, I agree with you entirely about HF. It's my favourite end too, and it doesn't really leave a lot outstanding, aside from Saber. Hell, it even resolves Shinji's "interpersonnal tensions", by virtue of a shadow blade to the head....
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Mind of Steel; I know that it's implied that Shiro will kill Illya along with Rin in the end, but personally I believe that manages to find a way to save her, and just as he becomes Kiritsugu 2.0, Illya will become Irisviel 2.0.
And before someone points out that they're related, it's not illegal for step-siblings in Japan to be in a relationship, or even to get married (heck, while blood siblings can't get married, a relationship between them isn't illegal either).
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Mind of Steel; I know that it's implied that Shiro will kill Illya along with Rin in the end, but personally I believe that manages to find a way to save her, and just as he becomes Kiritsugu 2.0, Illya will become Irisviel 2.0.
And before someone points out that they're related, it's not illegal for step-siblings in Japan to be in a relationship, or even to get married (heck, while blood siblings can't get married, a relationship between them isn't illegal either).
Oh, yeah, so Sakura gets murdered in cold blood, but that's just fine because Ilya at least gets sex with the Karma Houdini asshole who murdered her...?
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Mind of Steel; I know that it's implied that Shiro will kill Illya along with Rin in the end, but personally I believe that manages to find a way to save her, and just as he becomes Kiritsugu 2.0, Illya will become Irisviel 2.0.
And before someone points out that they're related, it's not illegal for step-siblings in Japan to be in a relationship, or even to get married (heck, while blood siblings can't get married, a relationship between them isn't illegal either).
Oh, yeah, so Sakura gets murdered in cold blood, but that's just fine because Ilya at least gets sex with the Karma Houdini asshole who murdered her...?
You do realize that lots of people will die if she isn't killed right? And Rin almost gets a Sealing Designation due to the resulting mayhem and Zelretch actually has to intervene to calm things down.
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You do realize that lots of people will die if she isn't killed right?
That's not her fault, though. She does not deserve to be murdered for it. The asshole betrayed her and murdered her in cold blood, he does not deserve a bloody happy ending with Ilya.
Plus, Ilya is the Grail. Killing her ends the war instantly. Therefore, logically, MoS Shirou should do so. If Sakura is allowed to be sacrificed "for the greater good", then so is Ilya.
And Rin almost gets a Sealing Designation due to the resulting mayhem and Zelretch actually has to intervene to calm things down.
Rin almost gets a Sealing Designation because she summoned the Grail and then didn't use it, which pisses the Association off. It has fuck all to do with Sakura, who they don't even know about.
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Plus, Ilya is the Grail. Killing her ends the war instantly. Therefore, logically, MoS Shirou should do so. If Sakura is allowed to be sacrificed "for the greater good", then so is Ilya.
Fair enough, I suppose.
And Rin almost gets a Sealing Designation due to the resulting mayhem and Zelretch actually has to intervene to calm things down.
Rin almost gets a Sealing Designation because she summoned the Grail and then didn't use it, which pisses the Association off. It has fuck all to do with Sakura, who they don't even know about.
Actually, they do know of her...as Fuyuki's new Supervisor, as Rin has joined the Clock Tower.
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Actually, they do know of her...as Fuyuki's new Supervisor, as Rin has joined the Clock Tower.
Well, yes (although she's only "acting" supervisor whilst Rin is away), but they don't know about what happened to her or the events of the Grail War. If they did then Sakura would be getting a Sealing Designation. Hell, if they knew she was connected to Akasha and receiving prana from there that would be enough by itself for them to want to experiment on her....
In general, though, Magi Sealing Designations have little to do with how dangerous you are. They're given out if you might make magic known to the public, if they want to "preserve" you or, most likely, if they're just pissed-off with you and want to exact punishment or gain something. In Rin's case, I get the impression that a lot of the Magi there wanted her land or, worse, Rin herself (she would make an excellent wife for a magus family).
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In Rin's case, I get the impression that a lot of the Magi there wanted her land or, worse, Rin herself (she would make an excellent wife for a magus family).
I know the Holy Church isn't all that different from the Association, but it's things like that that make me very supportive of the Holy Inquisition IRL and the Burial Agency/Executors in Nasu.
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In Rin's case, I get the impression that a lot of the Magi there wanted her land or, worse, Rin herself (she would make an excellent wife for a magus family).
I know the Holy Church isn't all that different from the Association, but it's things like that that make me very supportive of the Holy Inquisition IRL and the Burial Agency/Executors in Nasu.
The Church in the Nasuverse is no better. Take a look at Ciel, for example.
As for the Inquisition IRL, I would say that they acted in exactly that fashion. If they picked you up then you were automatically presumed to be guilty and tortured into admitting your guilt, and a lot of the time you would get picked up because your neighbour was pissed-off with you and wanted you out of the way.
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In Rin's case, I get the impression that a lot of the Magi there wanted her land or, worse, Rin herself (she would make an excellent wife for a magus family).
I know the Holy Church isn't all that different from the Association, but it's things like that that make me very supportive of the Holy Inquisition IRL and the Burial Agency/Executors in Nasu.
The Church in the Nasuverse is no better. Take a look at Ciel, for example.
As for the Inquisition IRL, I would say that they acted in exactly that fashion. If they picked you up then you were automatically presumed to be guilty and tortured into admitting your guilt, and a lot of the time you would get picked up because your neighbour was pissed-off with you and wanted you out of the way.
I might be a bit biased since I studied in a Catholic school, but I do know that while the Inquisition was cruel and oppressive, the idea that they routinely burned heretics is actually false. Those who confessed were usually flogged, and only the worst heretics were actually burned. And charges of witchcraft were actually dismissed early on in the Inquisition's history; the Church refused to believe in the idea, and rejected any accusations of witchcraft as 'malicious whispers of the ignorant'.
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I might be a bit biased since I studied in a Catholic school, but I do know that while the Inquisition was cruel and oppressive, the idea that they routinely burned heretics is actually false. Those who confessed were usually flogged, and only the worst heretics were actually burned.
I never said they did "routinely" burn heretics. They most certainly did pick people up and then torture them into confessing, though, and I'm pretty sure that at least some of the people involved in doing so were doing so for reasons other than religious piety.
The biggest problem with the Catholic Church (at least back then) is that it was a political entity as well as a religious one. People went into the Church not to serve God but because they wanted political power, or because they wanted the prestige and wealth that often came from being a priest. When you have that set-up you will inevitably get corruption. Even the Church itself admits that some Popes were horrendously corrupt (although mostly earlier on in history).
And charges of witchcraft were actually dismissed early on in the Inquisition's history; the Church refused to believe in the idea, and rejected any accusations of witchcraft as 'malicious whispers of the ignorant'.
Fair enough, but they certainly went after people for plenty of other things.
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All true, thankfully the Catholic Counter-Reformation set into motion the steps needed to change the Church for the better. AFAIK, mind that I studied under Jesuits; they're reformers and are open-minded, but they're absolutely loyal to the Pope and to Rome, and they never compromise on dogma.
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Well, I would still certainly have issues with the Catholic Church in some aspects (for example, their attitude to condoms), but they are a lot better than they were in the past, certainly.
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...condoms?
Seriously, what would the Catholic Church have against them, anyway?
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No idea what the conservatives have against the concept of 'protection', as far as the liberals are concerned, it's a matter of personal choice.
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I see... thanks for that lesson.
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No idea what the conservatives have against the concept of 'protection', as far as the liberals are concerned, it's a matter of personal choice.
I think it's something about of getting in the way of "God's natural judgement" or something like that? Regardless of the reasoning though, like you said, it's a matter of choice. It still doesn't mean conservatives should deny the right of making that choice or being educated about making that choice to others just because of their own beliefs.
And from here we should probably get back on topic. ^_^" ...I should probably say something about my personal canon, but I don't actually have an answer really just yet, so let's just leave it at that. :V
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Mind Of Steel route ends with Kotomine indeed predicting that Emiya Shirou does indeed win the war, he just didn't know which version would win.
Do you really think Archer, who is still very active at this point, would really let Rin kill Sakura? And do you really think Archer would really hold back after Shirou goes Full Retard?
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Do you really think Archer, who is still very active at this point, would really let Rin kill Sakura?
Probably.
And do you really think Archer would really hold back after Shirou goes Full Retard?
Not sure...
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I doubt Archer would let Rin kill Sakura- if anything, he'd probably do it himself, because it's his duty and also to spare Rin the pain of doing it herself. That's assuming he wouldn't seek out an alternate solution of some kind, as long as Rin was willing to do so.
I don't imagine him holding back after Shirou goes Full Retard either. He'd likely try to kill Shirou after that point. So really, if Archer was still around to play a part in things, it'd likely end up with Shirou being dead, and Sakura's fate would likely depend on whether the two of them (Archer and Rin) think there's an alternate solution or not.
(I should probably be trying to rerail the topic but... eh ^_^")
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I disagree wholeheartedly regarding Archer beating MOS Shirou in that ending. The reason being that Archer has not actually discarded who he is (that being emiya Shirou who wants to save everyone) as such MOS would beat him. Sad state of affairs given the situation but it does prove Archer's humanity.
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....I'm not sure how their ideologies have anything to do with who would win in a fight in this case. In a straight up fight Archer would win because he literally has an eternity of combat experience where MOS Shirou does not and is stronger overall because well, Servant vs normal magus. Plus in UBW, by the time the Shirou vs Archer fight happens, Archer wasn't running anywhere near his full capacity. This would be an Archer at full strength. Archer would curbstomp MOS Shirou, plain and simple.
Plus even if you take ideologies into consideration for... some reason, it's irrelevant here. Archer has no mercy for a self that has gone down a path this similar to his, especially when it's more insidious.
Plus the only reason Shirou in UBW was able to win on an ideological level (and thus the fight itself, though there's also the fact that, again, Archer was weakened by that point) was because he was able to convince Archer that there was still something worth fighting for in that ideal. MOS Shirou represents everything that Archer hates by this point, so he'd have no reason whatsoever not to turn him into a pincushion of swords.
Really, the only way he could win is if he kills Rin and then hides and waits for Archer's two days to run out. Either that, or ally with one of the other remaining Servants and use them to win.
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Yeah, UBW!Shiro kinda follows the Neutral Route of SMT. He doesn't really lean much either way, as his ideals serve as a mere guide as opposed to Fate!Shiro's innocent idealism or to the determined but broken HF! Shiro.
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...condoms?
Seriously, what would the Catholic Church have against them, anyway?
I think they see it as interfering in God's will (by artificially preventing conception). Of course, if God really wanted a pregnancy I'm sure he is quite capable of making a condom burst....
Mind Of Steel route ends with Kotomine indeed predicting that Emiya Shirou does indeed win the war, he just didn't know which version would win.
Does Kotomine even know that Archer is Shirou at that point?
Do you really think Archer, who is still very active at this point, would really let Rin kill Sakura? And do you really think Archer would really hold back after Shirou goes Full Retard?
Well, he definitely does in the Geas Bad End, so I can only assume he does here also. He would definitely go after Shirou, though, he has no reason not to at that point.
I disagree wholeheartedly regarding Archer beating MOS Shirou in that ending. The reason being that Archer has not actually discarded who he is (that being emiya Shirou who wants to save everyone) as such MOS would beat him. Sad state of affairs given the situation but it does prove Archer's humanity.
I don't see how that matters. Shirou is indeed more ruthless than Archer, but if anything he'd be more determined to kill Shirou than the converse. Shirou would see it as his reluctant duty, Archer would see it as a personal goal.
Plus the only reason Shirou in UBW was able to win on an ideological level (and thus the fight itself, though there's also the fact that, again, Archer was weakened by that point) was because he was able to convince Archer that there was still something worth fighting for in that ideal. MOS Shirou represents everything that Archer hates by this point, so he'd have no reason whatsoever not to turn him into a pincushion of swords.
Yeah, exactly. Archer in UBW has reason to give in to Shirou, because Shirou is still following his ideal, and has the potential to turn out a lot better than he is. MoS Shirou is already beyond salvation, and Archer would just kill him without any hint of regret.
Really, the only way he could win is if he kills Rin and then hides and waits for Archer's two days to run out. Either that, or ally with one of the other remaining Servants and use them to win.
What remaining servants? Berserker has no will of his own, Archer is supporting Rin and Rider would rather feed herself into a meat grinder feet-first than ally with the guy who betrayed Sakura.
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Archer doesn't have infinite skill. The counter force needs weapons, not people. Archer's understanding of what he's done is decidedly secondary, as if he read it on a wall, not first hand. If it were the latter then FSN as a whole is a plot hole or Archer is a monster.
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He might not have "infinite skill", but he is most certainly stronger than Shirou. Not having restraint doesn't magically make you win one-on-one fights.
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Pretty much so. Plus again, Archer's not going to have any restraint either, so MOS Shirou doesn't stand much of a chance. Hell, even if he killed Rin, I still think MOS Shirou'd have a really hard time of things. Like I said, his only chance is to take out Rin and then hide and wait for Archer to vanish, if what Cherry says is true and there's no longer any Servants for MOS Shirou to ally with.
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if what Cherry says is true and there's no longer any Servants for MOS Shirou to ally with.
Well, who could he ally with? Saber, Caster, Lancer and False Assassin are all dead, True Assassin, Archer and Berserker have no reason to ally with him over their current master and Rider's only intentions towards him are likely to make him suffer a horribly painful death.
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MOS ending is Archer winning the war. Pure and simple.
Ilya isn't going to help Shirou at that point, and if Shirou does go Full Retard like that, he's screwed. Even if Kotomine's helping him, there's still Ilya, Berserker, Rider (for a short time), Rin, and Archer. I doubt Gil would even factor into it.
Or Gil just kills everyone because, well, fucking fakers.
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Well, I think the major difficulty Archer would face in that context is Rin. As you've alluded to before in the fanfic you wrote that follows a similar ending, Rin's goals in that war don't co-incide with Archer's, at least once Shirou is dead. If Shirou somehow manages to kill Ilya, he might be able to remain attached to Rin long enough to end the war (although, then, if Shirou kills Ilya the war is over anyway), but otherwise Rin's desire to obtain the Grail at all costs will conflict with his desire to protect Ilya or, at very least, not be responsible for her death and the destruction of the world.
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I guess that's how you guys see it but I don't think it's that way at all. Two killers fighting isn't interesting at all to me though.
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I guess that's how you guys see it but I don't think it's that way at all. Two killers fighting isn't interesting at all to me though.
So you'd rather see two nuns in a slap fight then?
Joking aside, a balls to the wall fight between two combatants who want nothing more than to brutally murder the other is totally fucking awesome. See the Mad Dog fight in The Raid, where it's basically nothing but bare hands and improvised weapons in a brawl between these two guys and a total psychopath in an enclosed space. Some of the best action of all time IMO.
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I think it really all depends on the fight. Great fight choreography and well thought out setup/contextual stuff can make even a slap fight between two nuns interesting.
...In before someone says something suggestive about the nun slap fighting thing. ^_^"
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So you'd rather see two nuns in a slap fight then?
Look a slap fight between Kiara and Ciel sounds awesome.
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Eh, since this is personal canon this is still technically on topic I guess - slap fight between Kiara and Ciel, who would win? :3 Though I'd honestly bet on Ciel myself.
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Depends.
If Kiara has Andersen support, ala CCC route finale, she probably wins. Otherwise go with Ciel.
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Saber is bi and sleeped with Morgan with consent. That's why Mordred is identical to Arturia, Pendragon clan are medieval Nanayas.
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My MOS Personal canon is that post war Shirou's life becomes a near damm copy of Kerry's. Defeats Kirei at the end. HGW 6 start's years later with a different Holy Grail before that Shirou is hired by a Magus family to win the war and a member of that family falls in love with Shirou as he starts to regain his humanity. In HGW 6 he is forced to kill his wife and finds out that this grail is cursed as well he destroys it with his servant and in the resulting disaster is able to save one person. He dies telling that child about his dream and ask's Sakura to forgive him on his deathbed
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My personal canon is this:
That lover that Archer had that was even mentioned in Extra?
I like to think she was Luvia.
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I personally believe she was Rin in my headcanon
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I personally believe she was Rin in my headcanon
Yeah, I did too until I read UBW.
Archer's happiness that Rin and Shirou fell in love proved this because, as he told Rin, if she stays with Shirou a hero like him wouldn't be born. So if he had been with Rin, he probably wouldn't have made the contract that damned him. I do like to think there was a bit of a Rin/Shirou/Luvia love trangle in his time line, but Luvia just happened to speak up first.
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My personal canon is this:
That lover that Archer had that was even mentioned in Extra?
I like to think she was Luvia.
nice.
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Maybe she was Ciel?
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Yeah, I'm not sure who it was, but I think Elf is probably right that it's not Rin. But, then, it could have been Rin and then something happened to push them apart that would not happen in UBW. I would suggest something to do with Sakura, but since Archer seems not to know anything about her (and certainly doesn't seem to recognise her situation as an issue to be resolved post-UBW) that seems highly unlikely. Which does in itself suggest that Archer wasn't too close to Rin, because a close relationship means you don't keep things like "Sakura is actually my little sister" secret....
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Fem MC on a Rani route ending up with Gil Servant during CCC is my headcanon now.