Dark Side of the Moon
Type Moon => General Discussion => Type Moon Polls => Topic started by: Kat on February 24, 2014, 11:45:47 AM
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So, the poll is simple, whom of the three you consider to be strongest in direct battle? Disregard what Avenger says in HA, it is not obviously a competition who kills humans faster.
Poll without time limit, discussion on whom is stronger more than encouraged.
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Isn't Angra actually really weak? He's good at killing humans, but aside from that he's basically just a normal person.
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Ah, I should have clarified it further
The AM I mean is the fully incarnated god of evil that was meant to emerge at the end of HF.
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I don't think that is what you'd have got, honestly. I don't think the Grail is capable of incarnating Angra Mainyu in that fashion. It's just capable of spewing out gunk and killing everything, or incarnating some human-killing monstrosity. Certainly whatever it spews isn't likely to be much good at fighting ORT or similar.
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I don't think that is what you'd have got, honestly. I don't think the Grail is capable of incarnating Angra Mainyu in that fashion. It's just capable of spewing out gunk and killing everything, or incarnating some human-killing monstrosity. Certainly whatever it spews isn't likely to be much good at fighting ORT or similar.
If incarnated AM wouldn't be a grave threat to the world itself HF would lose much of its sense of urgency.
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I never said it wasn't a threat. However, it's not at-all clear that it would be a threat to the entire world as opposed to just Fuyuki, and even if it is a threat to the entire world that doesn't mean it has to be particularly strong, just good at killing people.
Also, Shirou, Rin etc. have no idea what the real level of danger is. All they know is that AM being born = bad. Indeed, the fact that Zouken seems OK with the idea of it being born (I'm not sure his plan could have stopped it) suggests it's not going to just kill everything, although possibly it might kill everything but him....
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But you know, it is inconsistent with how in UBW AM mud was supposed to wipe out at least 5.7 billion humans, and one would think that fully incarnated AM would be at least equally dangerous threat.
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I'm not sure there's a huge difference between Gil wishing for the Grail to wipe out most of humanity and AM being fully incarnated, honestly. And, I'm pretty sure that both Primate Murder and ORT could wipe out all of humanity if they tried and were mobile enough....
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With Primate Murder there is the issue it is under control of Altrouge, since no matter how not certainly nice average DAA is, they are not going to wipe the humanity because they would starve to death. What we know that Primate Murder > Crimson Moon from Kagetsu Tohya.
So in theory, there is nothing that prevents Primate Murder for being Aristoteles tier, and it might have Gaia's back up even under Altrouge's control, but ORT's Crystal Valley may negate the backup.
As for AM, Dark Sakura is nearly Counter Guardian tier (as in unnerfed CG), so we can assume incarnated AM might be stronger than a single CG, but does he have enough power to equal 7 CG that are needed to restrain Primate Murder when on a rampage?
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Sure, but the fact that there is something stopping it from killing all of humanity has no bearing on its relative power. It might not want to destroy all of humanity, but it is still capable of it (at least if CGs don't get involved). It would probably be slower than AM, but killing humans is AM's primary purpose.
Also, I'm not sure an incarnated AM is much stronger than Dark Sakura. Dark Sakura is intelligent and has power of her own, on top of being able to direct AM's power. AM would just be a primordial destructive force. It is probably still pretty strong, but I don't think it would be close to 7 CGs.
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Shadows that Sakura use are not the fully incarnated AM, so I always assume that they are weaker in power than him.
BTW, Primate Murder is considered faster than AM in the specific field of killing humans. Final outcome wise he is the same as AM, according to Avenger.
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Sakura's shadows have no direct connection to AM. They're her personal familiars. AM merely provides her with more power to use them, and strengthens them somewhat. So, I see no reason to assume they are either weaker or stronger than AM himself would be.
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I mean the shadow tentacle that she used prior to battle with Rin and when she was unconsciously nomming people.
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Yeah, that is her natural magic. She could do that even without Angra.
The shadow itself is slightly different, though, that is sort-of a manifestation of Angra through Sakura. But, whilst it is strong against normal humans, I don't see any evidence it is on the level of ORT or similar. It also has strong anti-spirit properties due to Sakura's Imaginary Numbers affinity, hence why it is so good against servants (but, even so, I think it needed some help to take down Saber).
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No, it is connection with Greater Holy Grail that makes it anti-Servant.
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Angra Mainyu is not only the weak being in the Grail, it is the amassed mass of prana and collective hatred of humanity thrown unto the monster. If AM is able to materialize, it will not be something similar to avenger at all, rather, having the Greater Grail as a vessel and such massive amounts of prana in reserve, it would pose an extreme threat.
The Materialized Angra Mainyu is pretty much a 'demon'. It is a materialized curse, and one of the most powerful ones ever, since it carries all of the world's evil. It will not only run on prana, but on the curse/negative emotions that it is supposed to represent, and seeing that it is a being on the scale of the world, that danger is massive.
Primate Murder has been stated to be Dead Apostle Ancestor N.1, but you have to recall that rankings isn't entirely descriptive of power. While there is a certain correlation, the ranking of the Dead Apostle Ancestors is based on their threat towards Humanity/the Church. Since Primate Murder is a monster created by Gaia to wipe out humans, and has absolute power over them, it makes a lot of sense that it is at spot N.1, but that doesn't mean that it is the most powerful of the Dead Apostle Ancestors. That rank should rather belong to ORT, theoretically.
Remember that ORT is the strongest one from Mercury, and is reputably one of the strongest Aristoteles when it comes to Attacking-levels. In comparison, Primate Murder does not qualify as Type-Gaia (we have Archetype Gaia in the Melty Blood Series), and its rule does not extend over beings alien from humanity/from being primates.
Thus, ORT is certainly superior to Primate Murder. If the two clashed, all the chances are towards Type-Mercury's side.
As for Angra Mainyu versus Primate Murder, it is possible that things could go either way... but as ORT itself is a being alien of any 'human' concept, I do not think that corruption will do much against it.
In the end:
ORT is supreme.
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No, it is connection with Greater Holy Grail that makes it anti-Servant.
Nope, it's Sakura's Shadow magic. It specifically has anti-spirit properties. The connection to the Grail improves the effect on humans.
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nothing can beat dogs
Least of all cats, which Ort is one of(Lazes around all day(for thousands of years) and slaps people who try to interrupt the lazing)
Therefore Primate Murder stronk
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Such loyalty.
Wow.
Very doge.
You go girl.
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Nope, it's Sakura's Shadow magic. It specifically has anti-spirit properties. The connection to the Grail improves the effect on humans.
1. I guess anyway without the Grail connection shouldn't be able to touch Servants. They are superior to modern Magi in general.
2. You people underestimate how cats can be ferocious when it comes to bullying dogs. My cat is lazing around all the day, but that doesn't stop her from mauling my dog.
In comparison, Primate Murder does not qualify as Type-Gaia
Canonically, PM is superior to Crimson Moon. Your argument that ORT is clearly superior to PM holds water when we get confirmation about the difference in power between CM and ORT. I don't remember we got such confirmation from Nasu
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In comparison, Primate Murder does not qualify as Type-Gaia
Canonically, PM is superior to Crimson Moon. Your argument that ORT is clearly superior to PM holds water when we get confirmation about the difference in power between CM and ORT. I don't remember we got such confirmation from Nasu
It's a statement from this Q&A:
Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.
A: All I can is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.
Basically, Primate Murder as the absolute authority over anything that is 'HUMAN', meaning that it can pretty much destroy most Servants and whatever human that thinks they're too cool for the doge.
But read on further, and see that ORT doesn't even follow Earth's rules, and we all know that ORT isn't Human.
Also, it wasn't said that Primate Murder is superior to Crimson Moon, rather it was said that:
It is currently under Altrouge Brunestud's control, and though it is not related to vampires, it counted among the Ancestors due to it having copied its master and developed a taste for drinking human blood. With this by her side, Altrouge is said to be a monster superior to even Crimson Moon.
"With this by her side" means Altrouge combined with Primate Murder, and who knows if the two other Guards of hers aren't included in that statement. I'm pretty sure that anyone would have problems when facing four of the most overpowered Dead Apostle Ancestors to exist.
So no, there is no concrete evidence that Primate Murder is stronger that Crimson Moon by itself. Also, Type-Mercury has the strongest Offense of all Aristoteles, and that's nothing to scoff at.
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1. I guess anyway without the Grail connection shouldn't be able to touch Servants. They are superior to modern Magi in general.
It would most likely depend on the servant. If they have Magic Resistance then perhaps not, but otherwise I see no reason why it couldn't work on them in principle at least. Sure, they could probably dodge, but if Rin can harm a servant with magic then I see no reason why Sakura could not.
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Cherry Lover, each of Rin's gems has one year of worth of her prana. Sakura's prana is spend most on supplying the Crest Worm so she cannot afford such measures. Rin without prep time cannot be a threat to Servants. I guess Sakura too.
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Yes, but in principle they can affect servants, and Sakura's magic is anti-spirit so she is better-placed to do so than Rin is. Without some extra source of prana I agree it is unlikely to be enough, but there is no intrinsic reason her shadows can't harm a servant.
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Yeah, Servants are spirits, but top tier, so it's hard to affect them. Rite of Baptism is also anti-spirit, yet it can affect True Assassin lethally after harming Zouken.
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nothing can beat dogs
Least of all cats, which Ort is one of(Lazes around all day(for thousands of years) and slaps people who try to interrupt the lazing)
Therefore Primate Murder stronk
voting ORT-tan, then; because crystal cat-spider girl. :V
=P
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ORT-tan is Kohai to Gaia's Senpai.
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In comparison, Primate Murder does not qualify as Type-Gaia
Canonically, PM is superior to Crimson Moon. Your argument that ORT is clearly superior to PM holds water when we get confirmation about the difference in power between CM and ORT. I don't remember we got such confirmation from Nasu
It's a statement from this Q&A:
Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.
A: All I can is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.
Basically, Primate Murder as the absolute authority over anything that is 'HUMAN', meaning that it can pretty much destroy most Servants and whatever human that thinks they're too cool for the doge.
But read on further, and see that ORT doesn't even follow Earth's rules, and we all know that ORT isn't Human.
Also, it wasn't said that Primate Murder is superior to Crimson Moon, rather it was said that:
It is currently under Altrouge Brunestud's control, and though it is not related to vampires, it counted among the Ancestors due to it having copied its master and developed a taste for drinking human blood. With this by her side, Altrouge is said to be a monster superior to even Crimson Moon.
"With this by her side" means Altrouge combined with Primate Murder, and who knows if the two other Guards of hers aren't included in that statement. I'm pretty sure that anyone would have problems when facing four of the most overpowered Dead Apostle Ancestors to exist.
So no, there is no concrete evidence that Primate Murder is stronger that Crimson Moon by itself. Also, Type-Mercury has the strongest Offense of all Aristoteles, and that's nothing to scoff at.
No Ambiguous Ayakashi, from what I understand it is implied that " It is owned by Altrouge and 'ONLY LISTENS' to her, so she can be considered to surpass the power of Crimson Moon in a way"
Primate Murder's presence alone is enough for Altrouge to be considered powerful than Crimson Moon himself.
If we put it into perspective think of it this way: it's like owning the most powerful weapon in the world lets say for example a 'nuke'.. before I own that nuke powerful countries all over the world will never listen or view me as a threat.. but now that I 'own' that nuke not to mention it won't detonate unless that button was magically pressed by me
then now I am a threat to them, if not, then I can be even considered stronger.. in a way.