Dark Side of the Moon

Type Moon => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cherry Lover on July 27, 2013, 08:19:14 PM

Title: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 27, 2013, 08:19:14 PM
If anyone has any questions to ask about the Nasuverse or anything related to it, then please ask in this thread.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 28, 2013, 12:06:34 AM
I get the feeling that I'm gonna have to use this thread a lot.

For example, when Heroic Spirits detect each other, what exactly are they detecting? Something like astral presence or something? Would it be possible to have a very light presence if your soul was almost completely fragmented, and thus "spread out" in a manner of speaking?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 03:23:28 AM
Hmm, I'm not sure it's stated, but I guess they could detect the prana they're leaking. Also, Heroic Spirits can see each other even when they're in spirit form.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 28, 2013, 04:45:37 AM
So an astralized Spirit can "see" another one like a blob of stuff floating through the skies, or do you mean that in a more metaphorical sense?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 02:05:44 PM
No, I mean they can literally just see each other as if they weren't astralised at all, I think. Even if the servant doing the seeing is not astralised. And, similarly, the servant's master can see them.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on July 28, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
Yeah, while I'm not 100% sure off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. :) I can try looking it up and confirming a bit later, but I'm pretty sure that's pretty much the correct answer. Still, I can try looking it up and confirming if you like.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. Masters can see their Servants as if they're un-astralized, but while Servants can sense other Servants, they can't actually see them. This is according to what Archer says in Fate/Stay Night's prologue. 
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Ah, OK.

Any idea of how they sense other servants, though?

And, Tyrnek, as for your original question, it is definitely possible for a servant to be indetectable, that's what presense concealment is. But, whether it could happen due to the nature of the servant's soul I'm not sure. We need to work out how servants sense other servants first.

However, I'm pretty sure another human can't sense astralised servants. Only their master has that capability.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on July 28, 2013, 04:59:49 PM
Ah, OK.

Any idea of how they sense other servants, though?
I'm not quite sure, but from what I can make out, it can vary from Servant to Servant, both in terms of being detected and how they detect. I think they sense Prana levels and can possibly sense a few other things such as if they're being seen or not, but I'm not 100% sure. We don't seem to get as clear of an answer for that in this case.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 28, 2013, 05:11:13 PM
Cool, thanks for the input. The devil's in the details, and I want to be as accurate as I possibly can.

I'd imagine it's a combination of prana leakage (especially since a large part of Presence Concealment is matching your emissions with your environment's - I think) and the "weight" of their soul (Gil's is huge, and he's not particularly good at hiding).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 07:29:56 PM
Okay, first time I'll be using this thread here, but what would Kariya's chances of surviving the Fourth War be like under either of the following conditions (or both)?

A) Having a Lancer-class Servant instead of Berserker!Lancelot

B) Having had actual magus training while away from the Matou family

Just curious, because of certain details that I'm trying to write into a story, if anything.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: lantzblades on July 28, 2013, 07:31:49 PM
With a lancer he'd be decent with either case although the former is better
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 07:34:24 PM
You mean the Lancer-class Servant is better than him having actual training?

Or am I misreading what you said?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on July 28, 2013, 07:40:15 PM
Scenario A really depends on which Lancer class Servant he gets, but really, he's better off with 'Zerker Lancelot.

Scenario B would increase his chances I think.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 07:43:51 PM
Cool, thanks for the input. The devil's in the details, and I want to be as accurate as I possibly can.

I'd imagine it's a combination of prana leakage (especially since a large part of Presence Concealment is matching your emissions with your environment's - I think) and the "weight" of their soul (Gil's is huge, and he's not particularly good at hiding).

Yeah, that does make sense. I suspect the prana leakage is the biggest thing, though.

I'm not sure it's ever made particularly clear, though. Nasu is quite good at that....

Okay, first time I'll be using this thread here, but what would Kariya's chances of surviving the Fourth War be like under either of the following conditions (or both)?

A) Having a Lancer-class Servant instead of Berserker!Lancelot

B) Having had actual magus training while away from the Matou family

Just curious, because of certain details that I'm trying to write into a story, if anything.

In the first case, still zero. Even if he had had no servant at all he'd have died within a few weeks. Even winning the war couldn't save him (well, unless he wished for it to, which he wouldn't since he needed to save Sakura). In the second case he might fare a little better, but I think the worms would still kill him in the end.

And, having a different servant might make things worse, since Berserker was actually quite strong. With a weaker servant he'd have lost quickly or, even, been killed by Kiritsugu since he wasn't useful.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 07:47:10 PM
I was thinking of him getting Diarmuid, honestly.

Then again, why do you think he'd be better with Berserkelot?

*ahem* Anyway, I was thinking of something like both options, really.

@Cherry: I guess I should be a lot more clear about the usefulness of his alternate Magus training. I meant that he wouldn't need the worms to begin with (at least in what I'm thinking).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 07:48:48 PM
I was thinking of him getting Diarmuid, honestly.

Then again, why do you think he'd be better with Berserkelot?

Because he's a hell of a lot stronger. Lancer couldn't have won the war even with a very powerful master, there's no way he could defeat Gil and I doubt he could take down Saber. Lancelot actually could beat Gil. Further, since he was a danger to Gil, Kiritsugu let Kariya live.

Quote
@Cherry: I guess I should be a lot more clear about the usefulness of his alternate Magus training. I meant that he wouldn't need the worms to begin with (at least in what I'm thinking).

Yeah, but Zouken wouldn't accept him without the worms, because without the worms Kariya isn't under his control.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 07:53:15 PM
Even if this wasn't exactly going to play out how it did in canon?

No, I'm not trying to make a massive argument, I'm just asking about the different chances of Kariya's survival (especially with a more agreeable Zouken, one that isn't as much of a total monster as he is in canon, but still a monster).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 28, 2013, 08:04:28 PM
How would he get Diarmuid? Did he steal the catalyst from El-Melloi (which made him furious, considering he had been stolen from twice, and summoned a Berserker instead? :P)? If it's just a "standard" summoning with Kariya having the same motivation as canon (save Sakura), then I can't imagine that the Grail would send him Diarmuid.

Granted, I'm not too familiar with Diarmuid's backstory, but I think his thing is more with love entanglements and treachery, whereas Kariya's thing is more of the standard "rescue the maiden from the evil wizard". Maybe he could get Don Quixote XD.

EDIT: Scratch the above. I could see how that would work, actually (Aoi and Tokiomi and Kariya).

As for survivability, you're asking us to consider this hypothetical scenario of a Servant swap in the 4th HGW we're familiar with, though at the same time you admit that the conditions prior to your version of the 4th are very different. Unless you are willing to tell us what exactly has changed, I'm afraid that the best we can do is give you predictions based on established canon.

Worm'd Kariya + Lancer = dead. Magus Kariya + Lancer = Kiri's gonna be gunning for him, so also dead. Magus Kariya + Berserksalot = Possibly dead, though has a better shot than most - though as Cherry pointed out, Zouken wouldn't allow that to happen without worming Kariya first.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 08:38:49 PM
Even if this wasn't exactly going to play out how it did in canon?

No, I'm not trying to make a massive argument, I'm just asking about the different chances of Kariya's survival (especially with a more agreeable Zouken, one that isn't as much of a total monster as he is in canon, but still a monster).

Well, yes, if you're not talking about canon it changes somewhat. If Kariya was trained and not wormed he would have more chance of surviving. It also depends on who the other masters are and how inclined they are to kill him....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 10:33:38 PM
True, I can understand that, Cherry.

Also, as for how Kariya gets the catalyst for Diarmuid, Zouken excavates it before Kayneth gets the chance to obtain Iskandar (which will be destroyed like in canon).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 11:21:21 PM
Kayneth's catalyst for Iskandar wasn't destroyed, it was stolen. Hence why Waver ended up summoning him....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 11:24:17 PM
When I said "destroyed", I was talking about the chance to summon Iskandar or anyone else.

I didn't mean the catalyst, by the way.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 11:32:21 PM
Oh, OK.

That was just somewhat confusing wording....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 11:37:47 PM
My mistake with the wording.

I won't do that again (if I can help it to begin with).

Now, for another question, what would be the best-case scenario for a non-wormed Kariya (who's gotten free of worms because of a one-time deal with Zouken he worded very carefully) to survive the war as a Magus and a Master? I'm trying to cover as many bases as I can here.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 28, 2013, 11:47:36 PM
Well, not getting killed if he loses is difficult, honestly, and winning is also very hard, given that Gil is around. It depends somewhat on whether Tokiomi hates him or not, though. If Tokiomi wants him to live and Kiritsugu doesn't target him he might survive under the protection of the church.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 28, 2013, 11:59:53 PM
Then again, I was thinking of something along the lines of "what if Kariya somehow stayed in the war all 16 or so days", plus keeping Diarmuid around after the war (instead of Kirei keeping Gil).

I'm still not sure how that would happen, unless I can work out some different Servants for some of the Masters, but keeping the classes intact (and keeping the "real world" requirement to them).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 29, 2013, 01:24:29 AM
Either that, or somehow finagle an alliance between Kariya and one of the other Masters.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 29, 2013, 01:28:13 AM
Hmm... that would be a good idea, if I ran with it.

Of course, I have a while to go before I fully decide what the different Servants will be (apart from Arturia, Diarmuid, and Iskandar), and who gets the different Servants (apart from Kiritsugu, Kariya, and Waver respectively).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 29, 2013, 01:38:22 AM
Either that, or somehow finagle an alliance between Kariya and one of the other Masters.

Yeah, this is probably your best bet, honestly. Even with some magical training, Kariya is massively out-classed, and the masters in the fourth war don't seem overly inclined to spare one another....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 29, 2013, 01:42:03 AM
Hmm... that does sound like something I'll keep in mind.

Tokiomi's already taken by Kirei (and Kariya wouldn't go along with that like Kirei would), Waver probably won't be available for this, and... I think I'll go with an alliance between Kiritsugu and Kariya (should that be the most likely bet that will work).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 29, 2013, 01:44:52 AM
Well, it's definitely plausible, but I'm not too sure it's a good idea if you want Kariya to live. Kiritsugu is seriously ruthless, and would quite happily put a bullet in the head of his ally in order to win.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 29, 2013, 01:53:20 AM
True.

I'll work something out, though, but I'm probably going to scrap that idea if worst comes to worst... and I'm talking about the idea of Kariya and Kiritsugu working together.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 29, 2013, 02:11:52 AM
Yeah, that definitely makes sense....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 29, 2013, 03:05:46 AM
Hm, well, let's break it down.

Kariya and Tokiomi: HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHHAH no.

Kariya and Kiritsugu: Kerry's always been more the lone wolf type. He'd only ally out of convenience, and would probably end Kariya as soon as he ceased to be useful... much to the dismay of Arturia and Diarmuid.

Kariya and Kirei: Hmm. That... might actually happen, considering how Kirei was so treacherous in the canon 4th. Diarmuid wouldn't like it, though, since his Master is insinuating himself back into the "love" triangle, and Diarmuid knows how those tend to work out for him and those around him.

Kirei would likely stab him in the back, though, so that's probably a no go as well.

Kariya and Waver: I don't know what you're planning for the story, but an inept magus of a prominent bloodline allied with the magus who believes that magi can become great through knowledge rather than birth would be interesting. There wouldn't be too much clash with Iskander and Diarmuid as well.

Kariya and El-Melloi: Unlikely, since El-Melloi would consider Kariya beneath him, though it could pan out. Of course, the fate of El-Melloi in canon doesn't bode well for Kariya either.

Kariya and Uryuu: Hoo boy, that would be interesting. Could be a case of using monsters to fight monsters (Kariya tries to manipulate Uryuu by "promising" to teach him how to do Magecraft?). Not sure how wise it is to ally with serial killers, though.


From a pure survivability standpoint, it actually looks like Waver is his best bet, since he's mostly reasonable, not insane/ruthless/treacherous/a complete asshole, and actually survives the War in canon.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 29, 2013, 04:00:14 AM
Hm, well, let's break it down.

Kariya and Tokiomi: HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHHAH no.

It's actually not quite as implausible as you make out, at least in this scenario. The two of them are not actually that far apart in terms of their goals. They both want Aoi and her kids to be happy. They just have very different philosophies and are both terrible at communicating with each other.

In canon, those things make such an alliance impossible, but in an AU where Kariya has learnt magic properly it's actually possible that he'll understand Tokiomi a bit better. Further, in such an AU Tokiomi will respect him a lot more, since he hates Kariya because of his attitude to magecraft. And, if they can get past their fundamental hatred of each other they don't actually make bad allies since, as I said, they both want the best for Aoi, Rin and Sakura.

Quote
Kariya and Kiritsugu: Kerry's always been more the lone wolf type. He'd only ally out of convenience, and would probably end Kariya as soon as he ceased to be useful... much to the dismay of Arturia and Diarmuid.

Yeha, definitely.

Quote
Kariya and Kirei: Hmm. That... might actually happen, considering how Kirei was so treacherous in the canon 4th. Diarmuid wouldn't like it, though, since his Master is insinuating himself back into the "love" triangle, and Diarmuid knows how those tend to work out for him and those around him.

Kirei would likely stab him in the back, though, so that's probably a no go as well.

Yeah, I can see an alliance forming, but I do not see it ending well for Kariya.

Quote
Kariya and Waver: I don't know what you're planning for the story, but an inept magus of a prominent bloodline allied with the magus who believes that magi can become great through knowledge rather than birth would be interesting. There wouldn't be too much clash with Iskander and Diarmuid as well.

Yeah, actually, I can definitely see this pairing. Their goals don't clash, as such, and even if they did end up fighting over the Grail I see Waver as being reluctant to kill anyone, let alone a former ally.

Quote
Kariya and Uryuu: Hoo boy, that would be interesting. Could be a case of using monsters to fight monsters (Kariya tries to manipulate Uryuu by "promising" to teach him how to do Magecraft?). Not sure how wise it is to ally with serial killers, though.

Yeah, I can't see them working at all. Kariya isn't going to stand for gratuitous child-murdering, particularly in the city where Rin and Sakura live, and Uryuu is just too insane to ally with anyone. Plus, it would basically guarentee Kariya's death, not least because he would be a clear villain who wouldn't deserve to live if he remained allied to Uryuu even after seeing what he did to those children.

Quote
From a pure survivability standpoint, it actually looks like Waver is his best bet, since he's mostly reasonable, not insane/ruthless/treacherous/a complete asshole, and actually survives the War in canon.

Yeah, I'd probably agree. The fact that it's an AU does change things a bit, though, particularly with regards to Tokiomi.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 29, 2013, 04:23:50 AM
Good points about Tokiomi, though as always, poor communication kills o_O
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 29, 2013, 04:32:51 AM
Indeed.

Then again, I might go with a Waver alliance for Kariya, just to spare both of them the trouble.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 30, 2013, 03:43:38 AM
Honestly, that probably is the best option. Whilst Tokiomi is plausible in some situations, you'd need to change their backstory quite a bit, and in a specific manner.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 03:57:30 AM
Indeed.

Also, according to the backstories of the Tsukihime character Ciel (plus according to the timeline), Roa tried to possess her for a time before Arcuied killed her (and then promptly came back to life). Now, my question is, what do you guys think would happen if the Church didn't get their hands on Ciel (then known as Elesia) in the time between then and Tsukihime?

I'm asking because I was also wondering when the general timeframe of said event is in comparison to the Fourth Holy Grail War. I would think that she would participate as a Master instead of one of the others (I'm thinking of taking off Kayneth to let her fit) for the simple reason of being able to die when she is killed.

Then again, any and all opinions are welcome, people.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 30, 2013, 04:26:01 AM
So her wish is for death?


Hm... If the Church didn't get her hands on her, then I think she'd be constantly on the run from them, considering how they consider her a heretic and all that, which may drive her into the open arms of the Association, and... ooh, that could be interesting to see. She would be a nightmarish Enforcer, I can tell you that. Hell, considering how much latent magical potential she has (4000 units of od is just ridiculous) and her inability to die, she could be a Marshall by the time the War comes around.

This version of Ciel would be lolhax though, unless Kerry gets a good Origin Bullet in her.


Maybe she'd be in a similar position to Touko, except on the run from the Church instead of the Association?

There are quite a few directions you can go with her, but the one you choose must fit with the overall theme of your story.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 04:30:50 AM
Huh. I see what you mean. Thankfully you have a good idea for that.

I guess I can keep that in mind.

Also, keep in mind that this is for the AU that I'm writing, and I want to cover the whole of the Ciel route in Tsukihime to some degree.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 30, 2013, 04:39:56 AM
Unless I'm missing something, I assume that what you said means that you plan to mix Ciel's Route with the 4th? I'm curious to see how that works out, unless by "Ciel's Route" you mean "Roa permadies".
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 04:43:57 AM
I meant Ciel's route will take place some time after the Fourth.

In short, the aftermath of the Roa troubles, honestly.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 30, 2013, 04:49:42 AM
Ohhh, gotcha.

If I remember correctly, this is also with Gundams, yes? Sentient Gundam familiars go go go.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 04:56:22 AM
Hmm... never thought of it that way before, though I may have to, considering who all I'm going to have pilot Gundams... if the Familiar process even works that way.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 30, 2013, 05:12:52 AM
I may be speaking out of my ass here, and this has nothing to do with familiars, but if you can put a consciousness into artificial human bodies to make homunculi, then why not robots? Granted, there may be too much of a disparity between the human mind and humanoid warmechs - unless we start considering Evangelion-type organobots and AAARGH STOP BRAIN STOP.

Just have homunculi pilots then :P. Or something.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 05:48:02 AM
That does make sense, having homunculi pilots, if only for the sheer lulz.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 30, 2013, 06:03:48 AM
"Hah! You and what army?"

*Kerry summons Einzbern's homunculus-piloted Gundam swarms*

"... oh."


EDIT: Also, Iskander decides to upgrade all of his Ioninan Hetaroi mounts to Gundams because MECHS.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 06:12:25 AM
Okay, I laughed at that. It was really funny, Tyrnek.

Anyway, I have this question about the whole Servant thing, because of something that I'm working on trying to incorporate correctly.

Is it possible for a Wraith of someone to be summoned after the Heroic Spirit was summoned into the Grail War? I'm considering the possibility of two Bluebeards, but one of them would be a knight, the other being Caster.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 30, 2013, 06:53:24 AM
Problem: If you're making a knight Bluebeard wraith, then how does he reconcile himself with the fact that he has to devour people's souls to survive? That's more crazy-Bluebeard's thing.

It should work, though, since a similar thing happened to the Edelfelt sisters in the 3rd.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 07:00:19 AM
Er, what I meant was something else. Sorry for the misconception, but I meant an actual Heroic Spirit as the knight Bluebeard (aka Gilles de Rais).

Also, didn't that thing with the Edelfelt sisters happen because of the Sorcery Trait they have, which they used to hack the Grail to get an extra Servant and set of Command Spells?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 30, 2013, 07:10:12 AM
Okay, that makes more sense.

Ohhh wait, I'm not sure you can. Wiki knowledge is inherently suspect, but a wraith is a lingering soul, and a Servant is a Heroic Spirit (which is also a soul) made manifest. Unless you use the "infinite parallel worlds" justification, then I don't see how one soul could be both unless you somehow split the soul apart.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Xamusel on July 30, 2013, 07:24:05 AM
True, but maybe the lingering soul of Bluebeard was copied into the Throne of Heroes, and the Heroic Spirit was made a separate class....

Okay, I'm pulling things out of nowhere now, so let me try that one over. Does anyone have a good idea who would be a good French Berserker?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 30, 2013, 04:16:10 PM
Yeah, I don't think you can have two versions of the same hero in the same war, aside from an odd situation like the Edelfelt sorcery trait.

As for the "sentient familiars" idea, whilst it is obviously possible to have such a thing (servants are an example of it), a sentient familiar can't really be controlled by the master, since it has its own will, and creating one is not particularly easy in any case. So, in general, doing so is not a particularly great idea, aside from being horribly unethical.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 31, 2013, 04:46:20 AM
Thinking a bit more, the whole "soul splitting" thing could potentially work, actually: the two different iterations of de Rais clash so much that his soul actually splits into two: one ascends to the Throne, while the other is left behind as a Wraith.


Okay, now I have some questions:

The Throne of Heroes is outside of time and space, inside Akasha, right? Does that mean that though the Holy Grail calls them down one at a time, the Spirits' departure could be considered simultaneous from the Throne's point of view?

Also, Len is a Demon-succubus-familiar-thing that messes with dreams, and is rather powerful, correct? Would it be too unreasonable to assume that given a big enough boost, she could potentially make her way into Akasha?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 31, 2013, 05:04:24 AM
The Throne has no concept of time at all, as far as I am aware. So, yes, in so far as you can even define "simultaneous" in a place without a time axis.

As for Len, What do you mean by "make her way into Akasha"?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on July 31, 2013, 05:13:43 AM
Alright, cool. Weird (lack of) time shit hooray.

Make her way as in get there and possibly "navigate" it.

Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on July 31, 2013, 05:18:57 AM
I'm not sure how she would get there, and I don't think it's even possible to "navigate" it. It's not a place in that sense.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 01, 2013, 05:03:33 AM
Hm, alright.


Different question: I know Rin is hopeless with technology, but even she knows how to use a cell phone... right?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 01, 2013, 05:47:39 AM
Well, at the time of FSN, probably not, since it's set before the time when absolutely everyone had one and Rin is naturally technophobic due to being a magus. We never see any of the cast use a mobile phone in the original FSN, although I think they do come up in Hollow Ataraxia.

I'm pretty sure she would be capable of learning to use one, though, even if she'd probably be prone to making the odd silly mistake. She's technophobic, not stupid.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 01, 2013, 05:54:47 AM
I see. Would it be reasonable to assume that Shirou has one, though?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on August 01, 2013, 06:15:03 AM
He has one in Hollow/Ataraxia if I remember correctly (it could have been Rin's too, but I doubt it). Rin and Shirou get trapped in a chest at Rin's place, and they try using it to call somebody to get them out of there.   
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 01, 2013, 06:18:09 AM
Cool, thanks!
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 01, 2013, 02:40:50 PM
I see. Would it be reasonable to assume that Shirou has one, though?

Again, it's never mentioned in the original VN but, as Alice says, it is mentioned in HA.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 15, 2013, 02:29:51 AM
Potentially stupid question about Magic Resistance here. Obviously, it lets Servants resist/negate the influence of magic attacks (physical, mental, etc).

My question is whether or not "Magic" here means "things infused with prana via thaumaturgy". For instance, say we had a cannon that used a charged gem as propellant in place of black powder. Would Magic Resistance influence the shot if the cannonball was otherwise normal?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 15, 2013, 03:06:04 AM
Magic resistance prevents direct damage from magic. It doesn't prevent damage from physical attacks with magical weapons, hence why Archer is capable of harming Saber despite his weapons being magically created.

However, I don't think a cannonball shot by a cannon could harm a servant, even if magic was used to propel it. Servants aren't supposed to be harmed by mundane weaponry. But, then, Nasu was never overly clear on exactly what that means, since a servant slamming another servant into a wall does cause them damage....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 15, 2013, 03:13:08 AM
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Magic resistance prevents direct damage from magic. It doesn't prevent damage from physical attacks with magical weapons, hence why Archer is capable of harming Saber despite his weapons being magically created.

So, would negative effects like really loud sounds taking out someone's hearing conceivably count as physical damage, not direct magical damage?

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However, I don't think a cannonball shot by a cannon could harm a servant, even if magic was used to propel it.

I'm aware, it was a hypothetical scenario.

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But, then, Nasu was never overly clear on exactly what that means, since a servant slamming another servant into a wall does cause them damage....

Walls are mundane, but usually not used as weapons. Hence, they do not fall under the purview of the category of "mundane weaponry." :P
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 15, 2013, 03:19:42 AM
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Magic resistance prevents direct damage from magic. It doesn't prevent damage from physical attacks with magical weapons, hence why Archer is capable of harming Saber despite his weapons being magically created.

So, would negative effects like really loud sounds taking out someone's hearing conceivably count as physical damage, not direct magical damage?

I would say that is probably the case, yes, but I doubt servants are really prone to such things anyway. Certainly you couldn't permanently deafen them.

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However, I don't think a cannonball shot by a cannon could harm a servant, even if magic was used to propel it.

I'm aware, it was a hypothetical scenario.

Ah, OK.

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But, then, Nasu was never overly clear on exactly what that means, since a servant slamming another servant into a wall does cause them damage....

Walls are mundane, but usually not used as weapons. Hence, they do not fall under the purview of the category of "mundane weaponry." :P

Lol, I wouldn't put that past Nasu, honestly....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 15, 2013, 03:38:08 AM
Alright. Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 15, 2013, 05:56:50 AM
Potentially stupid question about Magic Resistance here. Obviously, it lets Servants resist/negate the influence of magic attacks (physical, mental, etc).

My question is whether or not "Magic" here means "things infused with prana via thaumaturgy". For instance, say we had a cannon that used a charged gem as propellant in place of black powder. Would Magic Resistance influence the shot if the cannonball was otherwise normal?
Like Mike said, magic resistance is the ability to shrug off damage and other afflictions caused by magecraft.
Magically propelled or not, a cannonball is still a damn cannonball.
Depending on type there might be magic resistance skills that prevent the cannonball's magic to accelerate the projectile any further once that entered the Servant's proximity.
But it won't do anything to the cannonball's already huge momentum.
You'd need a skill completely different from magic resistance.
For example Araya Souren's special boundary field (which uses his origin of "stillness" or "quintessence" and can stop things dead on their tracks).

It also worths noting that despite some Servants have excellent magic resistance, most Noble Phantasms can effect them just the same. Hell, the Servants' physical attacks are technically could be considered "magic", as well.
This would imply that they're either:
1.) Too powerful (think of Excaliblast)
2.) Too advanced (more exotic and refined compared to what magic resistance was supposed to handle, ie: Gae Bolg's causality manipulation)
3.) Both of these at once.

The ceiling for an A class magic resistance seems to be at Caster(Medea)'s level. She's a witch from the Age of Gods with techniques far more refined than a modern magi's. But otherwise she's just a regular magus and her thaurmaturgy doesn't exceed the limits of modern magecraft (like how her attacks were a mass of A class spells). Except when she does, like it occurred in Hollow Ataraxia. And then her magic attack became so powerful that not even Saber would've been able to block it.

And as for the "magic" of regular attacks bypassing Saber's resistance, I guess it has something to do with intensity.
Just like how a smaller and harder bullet is more penetrating, Servants might be channeling their attacks into the very edge of their weapons. Energy-wise they could be insufficient but it compensates by being much more concentrated.
In principle it's like narrowing down the exit of the water hose to spray its content faster.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 15, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
Depending on type there might be magic resistance skills that prevent the cannonball's magic to accelerate the projectile any further once that entered the Servant's proximity.

Possibly, but the standard "Magic Resistance" skill doesn't do that.

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The ceiling for an A class magic resistance seems to be at Caster(Medea)'s level. She's a witch from the Age of Gods with techniques far more refined than a modern magi's. But otherwise she's just a regular magus and her thaurmaturgy doesn't exceed the limits of modern magecraft (like how her attacks were a mass of A class spells). Except when she does, like it occurred in Hollow Ataraxia. And then her magic attack became so powerful that not even Saber would've been able to block it.

Medea's magic is way ahead of modern magecraft. A normal magus couldn't do "A-rank spells" at anything like the rate she can. And, Saber can block pretty much anything Medea throws at her, even so.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
Yeah, standard magic resistance only works on magics that directly try to effect Saber or whoever other Servant has it.
For example it didn't neutralize the spell that was animating the Dragon Tooth Warriors and Caster abused this by having Saber caught by them physically.

And if we're at magic-neutralizing effects, curiously enough Diermuid's Gae Dearg doesn't seem to effect the body of Servants.
Despite the fact its explicit effect is to cut off the circulation of prana until the spear is in contact.
Perhaps it could be a safety measure because Diarmuid is a Servant too.
Also Gae Dearg seems to be limited to only "constantly on" type of magics.
So he cannot just thurst his spear forward and neutralize Saber's Excalibur.

Medea's magic is way ahead of modern magecraft. A normal magus couldn't do "A-rank spells" at anything like the rate she can. And, Saber can block pretty much anything Medea throws at her, even so.
I think you have a misunderstanding here.
I didn't say that Medea's magecraft aren't above the capability of modern mages.

But what she does in FSN isn't impossible by magus standards. It would just require far more effort from them.
For example to cast an A rank spell modern magi generally require a huge ritual. Caster can spam these A-rank spells with ease.
If I have to use a comparison it's like we have a dude who can barely bench press 200lbs.
And then another who can do 100 reps with the same weight.
That would be more or less the relation between modern magi and Medea.
And yeah, if we have a dude who can do 100 reps with 200lbs, you can bet he can bench press even more weight than that.
And precisely that's what happened in Hollow Ataraxia. Caster channeled a really powerful attack. And the narration asserted that not even Saber would be able to block that.
I was referring to this.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 16, 2013, 10:06:30 PM
Ah, OK.

I've never played through HA, so I don't really know what's in it to that level of detail....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 17, 2013, 12:06:38 AM
Alright... inane detail work time.

1) How far is Shirou's house from the school? I need to figure out Fuyuki City distances, because I'm getting them very, very wrong.

2) What day does Bazett summon Lancer, and what exactly happens between her and Kirei when he betrays her? Does she have feelings for him or something?

3) Post-HF good, what can Sakura actually do? Is the Greater Grail still around, or did the Excaliblast take care of it? Not sure if he destroyed the Lesser or Greater Grail there.

4) When we say that Sakura has like a trillion units of prana, does that mean that it's all stored in her body? Or is it more like she can access it, but the prana's still in the Lesser Grail? Is it something else entirely?

5) What has Nasu told us about the nature of souls?

I'm almost positive I'm gonna have more questions later. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 17, 2013, 12:35:40 AM
Alright... inane detail work time.

1) How far is Shirou's house from the school? I need to figure out Fuyuki City distances, because I'm getting them very, very wrong.

Hmm, I'm not sure it is ever specifically stated, but it's a reasonable distance (half an hour walk or so). His house is also not on the route to school from Sakura or Rin's house.

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2) What day does Bazett summon Lancer, and what exactly happens between her and Kirei when he betrays her? Does she have feelings for him or something?

I don't think it's ever said when Lancer is summoned, but it's very early, most likely before the prologue.

As for her betrayal, Kotomine befriended her prior to the war, and she came to trust him. Then, after she summoned Lancer, he attacked her when she wasn't expecting it and cut her arm off. And, yes, she very definitely does have feelings for Lancer. She is absolutely besotted with him.

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3) Post-HF good, what can Sakura actually do? Is the Greater Grail still around, or did the Excaliblast take care of it? Not sure if he destroyed the Lesser or Greater Grail there.

It's not entirely clear what Sakura is capable of post-HF. However, she would still have excess prana, and she'd probably be capable of using most of the things she is capable of in her Dark form with sufficient practice. It would be difficult, though.

As for the Great Grail, it's destroyed. The Excaliblast destroys it and the cavern it is in.

Also, do you mean HF True or HF Normal? There's no such thing as "HF Good", and I'm never 100% sure which people are talking about, since HF True is a much happier ending than HF Normal is. I assume you mean HF Normal, though, since you're talking about the Grail being Excaliblasted.

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4) When we say that Sakura has like a trillion units of prana, does that mean that it's all stored in her body? Or is it more like she can access it, but the prana's still in the Lesser Grail? Is it something else entirely?

It means she can access it, not that she has it stored inside her. Her body, like Rin's, can only store and use 1000 units at a time.

I believe that, as a former Grail, Sakura has a connection to Akasha, and thus infinite prana. She can't use it to access the source (at least normally), but she can draw prana from it.

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5) What has Nasu told us about the nature of souls?

Can you clarify what you're asking here? It's too vague to answer at the moment.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 17, 2013, 05:43:51 AM
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Hmm, I'm not sure it is ever specifically stated, but it's a reasonable distance (half an hour walk or so). His house is also not on the route to school from Sakura or Rin's house.

It's half an hour? Then does around 3km make sense, actually?

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I don't think it's ever said when Lancer is summoned, but it's very early, most likely before the prologue.

As for her betrayal, Kotomine befriended her prior to the war, and she came to trust him. Then, after she summoned Lancer, he attacked her when she wasn't expecting it and cut her arm off. And, yes, she very definitely does have feelings for Lancer. She is absolutely besotted with him.

That's about all I know from the reference materials. It would be nice to get the input of someone who's played HA, since "Kirei cut her arm off" doesn't really let me know the undertones of the whole scene.

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It's not entirely clear what Sakura is capable of post-HF. However, she would still have excess prana, and she'd probably be capable of using most of the things she is capable of in her Dark form with sufficient practice. It would be difficult, though.

So, shadow familiars and making shadow dimensions, yeah?

Building off of that, does she make the dimension, or does she access it? And is the fact that it's filled with shadows a result of AM's influence?

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As for the Great Grail, it's destroyed. The Excaliblast destroys it and the cavern it is in.

So no dismantling subplot with Waver and Rin. Right.

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Also, do you mean HF True or HF Normal? There's no such thing as "HF Good", and I'm never 100% sure which people are talking about, since HF True is a much happier ending than HF Normal is. I assume you mean HF Normal, though, since you're talking about the Grail being Excaliblasted.

lolifail. I meant HF Normal, yeah.

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It means she can access it, not that she has it stored inside her. Her body, like Rin's, can only store and use 1000 units at a time.

I believe that, as a former Grail, Sakura has a connection to Akasha, and thus infinite prana. She can't use it to access the source (at least normally), but she can draw prana from it.

If that's how it works, then... >:D

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Can you clarify what you're asking here? It's too vague to answer at the moment.

Sorry. It's just that this is a major point I'm going to explore in F/R, and I want to know more about Nasuverse souls.

Do people know the structure of a soul? What kind of manipulations are possible? How does prana factor into this - does it act similarly to food for the body? Is the soul made of a highly stabilized form of prana?

... that kind of thing. I know about mystic passes and spiritual surgery, but I don't know that anyone's ever actually taken a soul and dissected it, piece by piece, to determine how the different components relate to each other (if it even works like that). It says on the wiki that most mages don't actually give a shit about it since it's "unreachable, unworkable energy" and that it's "difficult to handle", so I'd assume that even Clock Tower's knowledge about the soul's inner workings is spotty at best. They're probably less concerned on how it works and more with how to fuck with it to do magic stuff.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 18, 2013, 02:15:00 PM
Oh well, a brief summary of what we know about souls in the Nasuverse.

Souls are the abstract methaphysical representations of one's existence. They are a person's mirrior.
Souls contain information regarding one's feelings, memories and even their own body.
They even shape one's destiny as they contain the person's "origin".
For this reason the location of the soul is a bit difficult to determine.
At one hand it is in the unreachable realm of Akasha.
On the other hand it's something that is bound to one's body.
I guess the closest estimation is to call it an arch between these two. And probably that's the reason why magic exists.
It's like an elastic rope. As long as it's alive the body streches out this rope into the human world, bound to him/her.
Upon death the rope is pulled back to Akasha.
Unless there's some other existence or force pulling it again.
Like Touko's puppets or somebody forcefully putting a soul into a container.

Next important thing is about the relation between body and soul.
For the sake of peaceful coexistence, the body must match the "image" of the soul.
And despite being eternal, souls have an "expiration date".
Both of these were shown with Zouken.
His soul slowly degraded as a result, giving him maddening pain.
Of course there are types of souls that allow the user to comfortably live for longer.
Vampires are the most obvious example.

Anyways, how can souls expire if they're eternal?
Again, this is a speculation of mine, but maybe because only the core of souls exists forever.
Whatever makes up one's personae does not. It's merely a temporary fabrication and it slowly degrades with age. Albeit people usually die faster than that and then Akasha breaks this "personality" part completely down to forge a "new" soul.
This also brings up the interesting question of what Servants consume when feeding on humans.
They are told to absorb a person's soul and life force. But does it mean they pull out the entire part of this "rope"?
I think not. Instead it's like cutting the said rope with a blade. The part of the soul which exists in the physical world is "cut off" and turned into magic energy.
And the rest returns to Akasha.

Effecting souls.
Well, technically ALL magic in the Nasuverse can be described as the battle of concepts.
It doesn't mean all magecraft are like conceptual weapons but in some form they manipulate these to get results.
Conceptual weapons and such are on the other hand are magics specifically aimed to manipulate concepts.
As in, forcing these on the target's soul.
In short any conceptual weapon can reach souls and in some form manipulate them. According to an interview with Nasu, conceptual weapons can be also used to outright destroy souls, albeit their power would weaken that way.
Again, by souls it most likely means the part which degrades over time.
Oh and by the way, while souls are generally only used when referring to humans, technically in the Nasuverse everything has a soul.
It's kind of like Animism.
If exists, it has a soul.
Even if it's a shovel.

If you want more obvious examples for interacting with souls, there are.
Albeit only a few.
To begin with, seemingly the most important part of the soul is poking towards Akasha.
And only True Magic can reach that realm. Specifically the 3rd, Heavens Feel.
Albeit there are some abilities that managed to touch these.
First example is Michael Roa. He found a way to bind his soul to someone who's about to be born, making him practically immortal.
This implies he has the limited ability to traverse in the world which souls inhabit a while before entering the physical world.
Second is Gransburg Blackmore, who can carry souls via birds and his Reality Marble either forces the soul or leave the body or outright "kills" them, sending these back to Akasha.
Third is Araya Souren. He has the ability to "see" one's origin. He could also force a person to be aware of this origin thus transform according to it.
Fourth is potentially Aozaki Touko. She managed to build an almost perfect puppet body for Emiya Shirou. With no way to know the fine specifics of what he was like. I don't talk about appearance but more hidden or minute details. Depending on how well she managed to reproduce these, Touko must've used some means to read Shirou's soul. Hence I mention her.

Anyways, all of these examples save for maybe Roa show that their soul manipulation is extremely limited. Just like time and space, the proper alteration of souls is something that belongs to the True Magics. In Roa's case he has magic that rivals if not outclasses that of the Age of Gods. And while much closer to actual soul manipulation, his understanding of it was still far from perfect. His best creation was merely a spell that infected other souls similar to a "computer virus". And the transference was also far from perfect.
So yeah, it isn't like magi aren't interested in souls.
They just generally can't put their fingers on it.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 18, 2013, 07:00:21 PM
^ This is very helpful. Thanks Willy!

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Whatever makes up one's personae does not. It's merely a temporary fabrication and it slowly degrades with age. Albeit people usually die faster than that and then Akasha breaks this "personality" part completely down to forge a "new" soul.

So, according to your interpretation, Akasha reclaims the memories and "core" of the soul when a person dies, but the personality is recycled/left to fall apart. It's not the "soul" that's expiring, but the "person who was 'borrowing' that soul from Akasha". It would be somewhat analogous to lending someone a new computer, letting them install whatever they want on it, taking it back after they're finished with it/dead, wiping the hard drive after getting all the pertinent info off of it, and then giving it to someone else. Is that correct?

This is just a ramble: Can Akasha create these soul-cores, or does it only have a finite amount to work with? If it's the latter, then it could also possibly be an explanation for why humanity's degraded since the Age of the Gods: too many people leads to Akasha dividing the cores into smaller pieces to have enough to go around. Or maybe the Spiral Root can't be bothered to create a completely new core for each new human, so it makes a copy of one of the original "cores" at random and uses that instead (and because it's a copy, it's inferior to the original).

... this is giving me lots to think about. Thanks!
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 18, 2013, 08:33:51 PM
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Hmm, I'm not sure it is ever specifically stated, but it's a reasonable distance (half an hour walk or so). His house is also not on the route to school from Sakura or Rin's house.

It's half an hour? Then does around 3km make sense, actually?

Yeah, probably.

Like I said, though, I don't know the exact distance. It may not ever even be mentioned.

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That's about all I know from the reference materials. It would be nice to get the input of someone who's played HA, since "Kirei cut her arm off" doesn't really let me know the undertones of the whole scene.

Ah, OK.

Well, I dunno if anyone on here has played HA.

You could try asking here (http://z13.invisionfree.com/Mobius_Space/index.php?act=idx). The guy running it is an ass, but he speaks Japanese, as do several of the other members. They're likely to be able to answer your questions better than anyone.

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It's not entirely clear what Sakura is capable of post-HF. However, she would still have excess prana, and she'd probably be capable of using most of the things she is capable of in her Dark form with sufficient practice. It would be difficult, though.

So, shadow familiars and making shadow dimensions, yeah?

Yeah, pretty much.

If you want to know what I think her abilities would be some time post-HF, go look at the version of her I made for the Cross Effects RP. She's post HF-True, but the abilities are fundamentally the same either way.

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Building off of that, does she make the dimension, or does she access it?

Well, I think the dimension is personal to her, but I don't think she makes a new version every time she uses it. It seems to be something that is "inside" her in a sense, but the exact nature isn't clear.

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And is the fact that it's filled with shadows a result of AM's influence?

Eh, what? Where did you get the idea it was "filled with shadows" from?

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As for the Great Grail, it's destroyed. The Excaliblast destroys it and the cavern it is in.

So no dismantling subplot with Waver and Rin. Right.

Nope, that's Fate and UBW only.

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Also, do you mean HF True or HF Normal? There's no such thing as "HF Good", and I'm never 100% sure which people are talking about, since HF True is a much happier ending than HF Normal is. I assume you mean HF Normal, though, since you're talking about the Grail being Excaliblasted.

lolifail. I meant HF Normal, yeah.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people refer to HF Normal as "HF Good". I'd have thought that just watching it would remove any notion of it being a "Good" ending....

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It means she can access it, not that she has it stored inside her. Her body, like Rin's, can only store and use 1000 units at a time.

I believe that, as a former Grail, Sakura has a connection to Akasha, and thus infinite prana. She can't use it to access the source (at least normally), but she can draw prana from it.

If that's how it works, then... >:D

Eh, what?

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Can you clarify what you're asking here? It's too vague to answer at the moment.

Sorry. It's just that this is a major point I'm going to explore in F/R, and I want to know more about Nasuverse souls.

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Do people know the structure of a soul? What kind of manipulations are possible? How does prana factor into this - does it act similarly to food for the body? Is the soul made of a highly stabilized form of prana?

Well, I know that the soul is indestructable, but needs to be bound to something (which is usually the body) in order to remain on the Earth. Prana isn't "food" for the soul, although souls must contain Prana since it is possible to extract prana from souls (in the case of Heroic Spirits, quite a lot, seemingly). But the soul isn't "destroyed" in the process of doing so, since the eventual result of the Grail War would have been the souls of the heroes returning to Akasha and, in the process, punching a hole that could be opened wider to allow the magus performing the ritual to get there.

Souls don't ever "die", as such, but over time they can decay. For a normal human that isn't relevant because their body decays far before the soul does, but for someone like Zouken is is a big problem. It's not totally clear how that "decay" happens, though. In the case of Zouken it seems to be because he keeps exchanging bodies.

The soul will overwrite any body it is in to make it look like the original owner, but it seems like changing bodies means that, over time, your soul loses the "prototype" and starts to decay. Eventually you end up like Zouken, rotten and barely able to remember your own intentions.

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... that kind of thing. I know about mystic passes and spiritual surgery, but I don't know that anyone's ever actually taken a soul and dissected it, piece by piece, to determine how the different components relate to each other (if it even works like that). It says on the wiki that most mages don't actually give a shit about it since it's "unreachable, unworkable energy" and that it's "difficult to handle", so I'd assume that even Clock Tower's knowledge about the soul's inner workings is spotty at best. They're probably less concerned on how it works and more with how to fuck with it to do magic stuff.

Yeah, I'm not sure you even could "dissect" a soul. I believe the soul is actually indestructable.

For this reason the location of the soul is a bit difficult to determine.
At one hand it is in the unreachable realm of Akasha.
On the other hand it's something that is bound to one's body.
I guess the closest estimation is to call it an arch between these two. And probably that's the reason why magic exists.
It's like an elastic rope. As long as it's alive the body streches out this rope into the human world, bound to him/her.
Upon death the rope is pulled back to Akasha.
Unless there's some other existence or force pulling it again.
Like Touko's puppets or somebody forcefully putting a soul into a container.

Hmm, are you sure about this? I thought the soul was genuinely on Earth, hence why it can be "eaten" in a sense. It can only stay anchored on the Earth via a body, but I thought it was there.

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Next important thing is about the relation between body and soul.
For the sake of peaceful coexistence, the body must match the "image" of the soul.
And despite being eternal, souls have an "expiration date".
Both of these were shown with Zouken.
His soul slowly degraded as a result, giving him maddening pain.
Of course there are types of souls that allow the user to comfortably live for longer.
Vampires are the most obvious example.

Any idea how this works? In particular, when someone is turned into a Vampire do they get a "new" soul or something? Also, what about Magi that live longer in a more normal way?

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Anyways, how can souls expire if they're eternal?
Again, this is a speculation of mine, but maybe because only the core of souls exists forever.
Whatever makes up one's personae does not. It's merely a temporary fabrication and it slowly degrades with age. Albeit people usually die faster than that and then Akasha breaks this "personality" part completely down to forge a "new" soul.
This also brings up the interesting question of what Servants consume when feeding on humans.
They are told to absorb a person's soul and life force. But does it mean they pull out the entire part of this "rope"?
I think not. Instead it's like cutting the said rope with a blade. The part of the soul which exists in the physical world is "cut off" and turned into magic energy.
And the rest returns to Akasha.

Yeah, something like this perhaps makes sense.

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Whatever makes up one's personae does not. It's merely a temporary fabrication and it slowly degrades with age. Albeit people usually die faster than that and then Akasha breaks this "personality" part completely down to forge a "new" soul.

So, according to your interpretation, Akasha reclaims the memories and "core" of the soul when a person dies, but the personality is recycled/left to fall apart. It's not the "soul" that's expiring, but the "person who was 'borrowing' that soul from Akasha". It would be somewhat analogous to lending someone a new computer, letting them install whatever they want on it, taking it back after they're finished with it/dead, wiping the hard drive after getting all the pertinent info off of it, and then giving it to someone else. Is that correct?

IIRC, when a person dies their soul returns to Akasha and is torn apart, wiped of all information and the bits are reused. Souls are definitely indestructable, but they can seemingly be divided and wiped clean.

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This is just a ramble: Can Akasha create these soul-cores, or does it only have a finite amount to work with? If it's the latter, then it could also possibly be an explanation for why humanity's degraded since the Age of the Gods: too many people leads to Akasha dividing the cores into smaller pieces to have enough to go around. Or maybe the Spiral Root can't be bothered to create a completely new core for each new human, so it makes a copy of one of the original "cores" at random and uses that instead (and because it's a copy, it's inferior to the original).

... this is giving me lots to think about. Thanks!

I've always thought the second, because it does indeed explain the weakening of humanity. In particular, I thought it might apply to magic, since I know magic circuits are part of the soul.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 18, 2013, 09:00:47 PM
^ This is very helpful. Thanks Willy!

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Whatever makes up one's personae does not. It's merely a temporary fabrication and it slowly degrades with age. Albeit people usually die faster than that and then Akasha breaks this "personality" part completely down to forge a "new" soul.

So, according to your interpretation, Akasha reclaims the memories and "core" of the soul when a person dies, but the personality is recycled/left to fall apart. It's not the "soul" that's expiring, but the "person who was 'borrowing' that soul from Akasha". It would be somewhat analogous to lending someone a new computer, letting them install whatever they want on it, taking it back after they're finished with it/dead, wiping the hard drive after getting all the pertinent info off of it, and then giving it to someone else. Is that correct?

Yeah, your example pretty much fits with what I described above.
Albeit I like to think about them as "telomers" of the "soul string". Something which is only fabricated when a person exists in the physical world.
And breaks down completely once that lost its usefulness.


This is just a ramble: Can Akasha create these soul-cores, or does it only have a finite amount to work with? If it's the latter, then it could also possibly be an explanation for why humanity's degraded since the Age of the Gods: too many people leads to Akasha dividing the cores into smaller pieces to have enough to go around. Or maybe the Spiral Root can't be bothered to create a completely new core for each new human, so it makes a copy of one of the original "cores" at random and uses that instead (and because it's a copy, it's inferior to the original).
Well, I don't think Akasha's power or soul stock is in any way finite.
Especially not in a sense that the growing population of humans can deplete it.
Akasha did birth the multiverse, AKA a collection of infinite parallel universes.

The dwindling of magic is a cumulative result of many things, from what we know these are:
- Loss of knowledge: Many who had the ancient arts did die without anyone inheriting their power. Hence modern magi developed the magic crest to prevent it.
- Technology. It turned the miracles of magic into mundane. This had the effect of altering the gestalt physic field of humanity. This is most likely why Phantasmal Races went nearly extinct, or into hiding.
- Evolution. The human DNA changed and in a way "degraded" over the ages. Apparently, the original humans were flat-out amazing. And if you look at Ryougi Shiki that definitely seems to be the case. This is also the reason why not every human has magic circuits. It's a kind of leftover trait and modern humans should have no need of it.
- True Magic. From what I remember from the translated parts of Mahoutsukai, once a magician reaches the Origin he or she becomes part of Akasha. It also has the nasty effect of closing off that particular path. So every successful True Magic user decreases the number of miracles possible in the world. Or something along these lines.

So yeah.
Long story short magic is something that progressively becomes less necessary to humans.
This is most likely also the reason why magi dwelves to much into the past instead of just trying to develop better uses for their current magic.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 18, 2013, 10:31:28 PM
@ Cherry:

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Eh, what? Where did you get the idea it was "filled with shadows" from?

Don't trust me on that, since I vaguely remember reading something to that effect on the wiki. "Taking it into the shadow realm and spearing people with the shadows" or something.

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But the soul isn't "destroyed" in the process of doing so, since the eventual result of the Grail War would have been the souls of the heroes returning to Akasha and, in the process, punching a hole that could be opened wider to allow the magus performing the ritual to get there.

So the reason the Heroic Spirits are retained is so that when there are enough of them, the effect of 6/7 of these huge souls getting back to the Root at once would open a big enough hole for shit to happen? If so, then I've been misunderstanding the process this entire time.

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Yeah, I'm not sure you even could "dissect" a soul. I believe the soul is actually indestructable.
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IIRC, when a person dies their soul returns to Akasha and is torn apart, wiped of all information and the bits are reused. Souls are definitely indestructable, but they can seemingly be divided and wiped clean.

ATTW, it says that the soul is indestructible in the material realm, but that the soul usually resides somewhere else that's between the Root and "reality", meaning that someone could conceivably start ripping it apart if they could access this space-between-spaces (lol).

@ Willy

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Albeit I like to think about them as "telomers" of the "soul string". Something which is only fabricated when a person exists in the physical world.
And breaks down completely once that lost its usefulness.

Astral genetics, basically. If I'm interpreting this correctly, then a persona is only there to protect the soul-core from damage, so if there's a mental attack, then the persona breaks before the soul-core does.

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This is also the reason why not every human has magic circuits. It's a kind of leftover trait and modern humans should have no need of it.

Ohh, so they're becoming vestigial. As a species, we don't really use them anymore, so they've fallen by the wayside.

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Long story short magic is something that progressively becomes less necessary to humans.

So it's spiritual devolution by material evolution, with the increase of what we consider "possible" leading to the rapid decrease in what we consider "impossible", destroying the sense of wonder which was the reason why olde Magick was so damn powerful?

Also, Magicians technically aren't human anymore, right? They're treated as their own independent entities (that Akasha wants to destroy), unless I miss my guess.

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This is most likely also the reason why magi dwelves to much into the past instead of just trying to develop better uses for their current magic.

Because they don't like being made obsolete.


Wait, okay, so could this potentially be how Reality Marbles work? You make a copy of your persona and overwrite the outside world with it temporarily. That's why you can't get it through rote study or pass it on, as everyone's persona is completely different.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 19, 2013, 06:14:04 AM
Yes, Reality Marbles were always about forcing the reality of your persona/soul to your surroundings.
Or more like (because of limitations) that a Reality Marble materializes the most predominant concept of your soul.
This makes them unpredictable thus dangerous. Probably why the Mage's Association has a ban on these.
It can be also connected to one's "origin" somehow. Just like Shirou's UBW and his origin of "sword".
The most interesting fact is that "origin" should be the true "soul string", the one which never changes.
Yet according to CM4 (or CM5?), Avalon "changed" Shirou's origin to that of the "sword". Of course Avalon is so powerful it's apparently beyond the 5 True Magics, so it isn't that surprising. Still, I'd be interested in the mechanism. Did it really alter the whole string that connects to Akasha or it just exchanged the "old" string with a new one which had the "sword" attribute, while keeping most of Shirou's personae. Soul-splicing anyone? And Avalon did this as a mere side effect.

And to answer Mike's question, no I seriously doubt that vampirized humans are given a new soul.
It's more like a spiritual infection. The soul which is seemingly unalterable does suffer changes in the process.
It's kind of like how Archer's arm gradually invaded both Shirou's body and soul. Killing him and his memories as time went on.
And I remembered things wrong with Dead Apostles. They don't have everlasting souls. The reason why they need to consume blood is to refill their corroding spirit with fresh human DNA and souls. So basically they are also eating souls.
Of course by constantly drinking blood, Dead Apostles souls can technically last forever. Because it renews itself by the sacrifice of human souls.
And apparently, with age, Dead Apostles learn how to minimize the degradation of their souls thus requiring less blood.
In contrast newly born vampires need a ridiculous body count in the beginning to stabilize themselves.

As for the Magus being a different race, I seriously doubt that.
Not from the biological standpoint, at least. Magi and "regular humans" are still capable of having an offspring.
But the capability to cast magic seems to be an ancient gene. If it's even expressed in the genes at all. Maybe it's merely an imprint which exists in the soul and then expressed from there to effect the body.
Otherwise a more savvy magus might've used genetic engineering to create an offspring with the best magic qualities.
I also doubt that things like elemental attribute are something connected to the magus' genes.
Of course this is just speculation on my part.
Maybe magi are just so averse from science that they don't even know what the advances of genetics can do.
And in light of their oppressed feeling because of technology, we can understand them.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 19, 2013, 06:49:14 AM
So an awakened origin is when the string goes berserk, destroying the persona in the process.

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Still, I'd be interested in the mechanism. Did it really alter the whole string that connects to Akasha or it just exchanged the "old" string with a new one which had the "sword" attribute, while keeping most of Shirou's personae. Soul-splicing anyone? And Avalon did this as a mere side effect.

Hm... this is just speculation, but it could be that because Shirou almost died in the fire, his default string was partially destroyed, so part of Avalon's healing involved repairing this string - but since Avalon is a sheathe, there's really only one thing a sheathe could know really well, hence the Sword origin change. Maybe. I don't know.

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As for the Magus being a different race, I seriously doubt that.

Ugh, I really should've been more clear with that question. I was asking if users of True Magic are still considered human (for example, by Alaya). I don't think they're genetically different, but maybe they're different enough conceptually to warrant a reclassification.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Tyrnek on August 26, 2013, 06:20:10 AM
So Sakura is an "imperfect" Grail. I want to know exactly what that means - what makes her less complete than Ilya? Is Ilya aware of the existence of the Matou Grail?

Anyone care to help? /hopeful
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 26, 2013, 04:45:13 PM
Ilya was designed and trained from birth to be a Grail, whereas Sakura is a normal human being who had chunks of the previous Grail embedded in her. Thus, Ilya is able to retain the spirits inside her without too many issues (although she does have to "turn off" some of her human functions), whereas with Sakura it leaks out (resulting in the Shadow) and, eventually, corrupts her.

And, yes, Ilya is aware of Sakura's status as a Grail, at least in HF. If Shirou doesn't get enough Ilya points, then she shows up at his house on about day 7 (before Shirou is even aware that Sakura is a magus) and turns him into a doll to use against Sakura. It's not 100% clear exactly when she works it out, though, she might well not know until Sakura is activated (and, potentially, until she absorbs a soul that Ilya herself should have received).

@ Cherry:

Sorry it took so long to reply.

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Eh, what? Where did you get the idea it was "filled with shadows" from?

Don't trust me on that, since I vaguely remember reading something to that effect on the wiki. "Taking it into the shadow realm and spearing people with the shadows" or something.

Ah, OK.

Well, it seems plausible that she could do that, but I don't think her shadow realm is necessarily full of shadows, and nor do the shadows only exist there.

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But the soul isn't "destroyed" in the process of doing so, since the eventual result of the Grail War would have been the souls of the heroes returning to Akasha and, in the process, punching a hole that could be opened wider to allow the magus performing the ritual to get there.

So the reason the Heroic Spirits are retained is so that when there are enough of them, the effect of 6/7 of these huge souls getting back to the Root at once would open a big enough hole for shit to happen? If so, then I've been misunderstanding the process this entire time.

Actually, to open the path to Akasha, it needs all 7. But, yes, that's the basic principle.

However, I believe that precisely none of the participants in the fifth war both know and care about this. Ilya probably does know, but since she's the Grail she cannot do it herself, and Zouken may well know but couldn't care less since he just wants immortality. Rin doesn't know because her father died unexpectedly (because he was too damn arrogant to realise the possibility of death in a seven-way-war where the losers are usually killed...) and thus never thought to teach her all this stuff.

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Yeah, I'm not sure you even could "dissect" a soul. I believe the soul is actually indestructable.
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IIRC, when a person dies their soul returns to Akasha and is torn apart, wiped of all information and the bits are reused. Souls are definitely indestructable, but they can seemingly be divided and wiped clean.

ATTW, it says that the soul is indestructible in the material realm, but that the soul usually resides somewhere else that's between the Root and "reality", meaning that someone could conceivably start ripping it apart if they could access this space-between-spaces (lol).

Hmm, yeah, that's possible.

Yes, Reality Marbles were always about forcing the reality of your persona/soul to your surroundings.
Or more like (because of limitations) that a Reality Marble materializes the most predominant concept of your soul.
This makes them unpredictable thus dangerous. Probably why the Mage's Association has a ban on these.

Actually, this isn't really true, as far as I can tell. The main reason for having a ban on Reality Marbles is that the heads of the Association don't have one, and thus they dislike others having them. Plus, since they're not something you can learn or pass on to your kids, they don't fit with the whole "improve your family line" orthodoxy that the Association holds to.

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And to answer Mike's question, no I seriously doubt that vampirized humans are given a new soul.
It's more like a spiritual infection. The soul which is seemingly unalterable does suffer changes in the process.
It's kind of like how Archer's arm gradually invaded both Shirou's body and soul. Killing him and his memories as time went on.
And I remembered things wrong with Dead Apostles. They don't have everlasting souls. The reason why they need to consume blood is to refill their corroding spirit with fresh human DNA and souls. So basically they are also eating souls.
Of course by constantly drinking blood, Dead Apostles souls can technically last forever. Because it renews itself by the sacrifice of human souls.
And apparently, with age, Dead Apostles learn how to minimize the degradation of their souls thus requiring less blood.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

It also explains why they get less and less human as they age. A new vampire like Sacchin or Sion can still be basically good, but an older one will invariably end up eating indiscriminately without caring for others.

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As for the Magus being a different race, I seriously doubt that.
Not from the biological standpoint, at least. Magi and "regular humans" are still capable of having an offspring.

Well, that doesn't imply they're not a different race. Biologically-speaking, "race" means a subdivision of a species which has clearly-identifiable traits that other members of the species don't have, members of which usually don't interbreed with members of other races (because of either physical seperation or sexual selection), but are still capable of breeding with the rest of the species. So, in that sense, magi actually are a different race from normal humans (interestingly, according to the biological definition of "race", the normal human population does not have them, since we inter-breed too much for them to form).

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But the capability to cast magic seems to be an ancient gene. If it's even expressed in the genes at all. Maybe it's merely an imprint which exists in the soul and then expressed from there to effect the body.
Otherwise a more savvy magus might've used genetic engineering to create an offspring with the best magic qualities.
I also doubt that things like elemental attribute are something connected to the magus' genes.
Of course this is just speculation on my part.
Maybe magi are just so averse from science that they don't even know what the advances of genetics can do.
And in light of their oppressed feeling because of technology, we can understand them.

Well, it clearly is in some sense "genetic", because powerful parents have powerful kids. Still, it can't be as simple as a "magus gene", because, for example, Aoi is not herself a very powerful magus, but possesses a trait that makes her children powerful magi. Which doesn't really make sense from a purely genetic perspective.

Also, the affinity is definitely genetic, because Sakura needed substantial alteration to make her into a Matou magus. Her natural abilities are as a Tohsaka.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 27, 2013, 02:54:03 PM
It could be that Aoi possess a recessive gene or genes (since physical attributes and such are expressed by tons of genes working together, why not Magic Circuits?) that is beneficial for Magi.
Recessive genes are only expressed when both sides of the DNS spiral contain them.

Magic-related genes being recessive also makes sense. Because it explains why magi only marry between each other.

As for Aoi not being a powerful magus, there's an easy explanation. Even if the above wouldn't be the case.
She's a branch member of the family. Generally only the future heirs of each magus lineage are taught in magic.

Albeit given what the Einsbern family can do I strongly suspect that there's more than simple genetics that make the mage.
Or you could say "soul genetics".
Not just the body but also the soul has special qualities that can be inherited through the offsprings.

Soul is something magi cannot really touch.
And if magic capacity would be determined through purely genetic means then I suppose some magi would've already exploited it to great degree.
That's why I doubt it's that simple.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 27, 2013, 05:19:52 PM
It could be that Aoi possess a recessive gene or genes (since physical attributes and such are expressed by tons of genes working together, why not Magic Circuits?) that is beneficial for Magi.
Recessive genes are only expressed when both sides of the DNS spiral contain them.

Magic-related genes being recessive also makes sense. Because it explains why magi only marry between each other.

The problem with that idea is that genetics does not work that way (although, admittedly, Nasu may not know that). Firstly, whilst a gene could be recessive, for Rin and Sakura to have that gene they would have to get it from both their father and their mother, which means Tokiomi would also need to possess the same "uber-powerful magus" gene. If that was the case then, honestly, I would expect him to be marrying one of his cousins or something, given how determined magi are to improve their successor's abilities.

Secondly, that would mean there was only a 50/50 chance of either child obtaining the gene, and therefore only a 1 in 4 chance of them both obtaining it. Admittedly we can't rule that out, but the way that they are basically identical in terms of potential implies it's not genetic in the literal sense.

It's not simply a matter of Aoi not being a magus but being able to create magi children. Aoi is able to not only create magical children, but to create magical children that are considerably more powerful than their father. That does not make sense from a genetic viewpoint (the children tend to be an average of the mother and father), at least not as a general rule.

That's not to say there isn't a genetic element. Maybe Aoi has a gene that causes lots of magic circuits to develop in any child she is carrying. But, it's not as simple as "Aoi has a recessive gene for magic", because genetics does not work like that.

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As for Aoi not being a powerful magus, there's an easy explanation. Even if the above wouldn't be the case.
She's a branch member of the family. Generally only the future heirs of each magus lineage are taught in magic.

It's beyond that, though. Not only is she not a powerful magus, she isn't capable of becoming one even with training. She doesn't have the circuits that Rin or Sakura has, she merely has the ability to "maximise the potential of her children". This is very explicitly stated.

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Albeit given what the Einsbern family can do I strongly suspect that there's more than simple genetics that make the mage.
Or you could say "soul genetics".
Not just the body but also the soul has special qualities that can be inherited through the offsprings.

Soul is something magi cannot really touch.
And if magic capacity would be determined through purely genetic means then I suppose some magi would've already exploited it to great degree.
That's why I doubt it's that simple.

Yeah, definitely. Particularly since magic circuits are explicitly part of the soul.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 13, 2013, 03:08:58 AM
Here's a question: if magecraft is simply magic that was reduced to a 'craft' by ordinary Humans understanding how magic works by scientific means, how come technology can't hurt monsters?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 13, 2013, 03:34:18 AM
Eh, what do you mean? I don't recall anything saying that technology can't hurt "monsters" in general. Servants, yes, but that's because servants are magical entities.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 13, 2013, 03:51:16 AM
Eh, what do you mean? I don't recall anything saying that technology can't hurt "monsters" in general. Servants, yes, but that's because servants are magical entities.

Someone once told me that should Humans (the ordinary ones) try to stand up against the magical/supernatural they'll just get wiped out.  Which doesn't make sense seeing as magi and even the World itself fears the advance of science.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 13, 2013, 04:48:00 AM
Well, it's not so much that technology can't hurt them (Kiritsugu demonstrates otherwise) as it is that they are powerful enough to have countermeasures to it, or are sufficently durable that nothing short of a nuke will kill them.

For example, Zouken is literally just a swarm of worms, and Nero is a collection of beasts. If you shoot them it has no real effect. If you blow them up with a tank shell it would probably not kill them. It's not that they're immune to technology so much as it is that technology is designed to kill squishy normal humans and not self-reinforcing magi with energy shields....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 13, 2013, 10:28:47 AM
Ah, I see.  Moving onto my next question, which is the background points:

1) Magecraft gets progressively weaker with every generation as Humanity gets further and further away from it's origin.

2) Humans will inevitable render all forms of magic obselete.

Does this mean that eventually magic and magecraft will cease to exist and that individual Humans can face Gaia and Alaya on equal terms ala Notes?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 13, 2013, 08:36:22 PM
Hmm, yes, I think it is implied that magecraft will eventually cease to exist. Indeed, the major point of divergence between Fate/Extra and the rest of the Nasuverse is that it happened in the 1980s or so.

I'm not sure, though, that magecraft disappearing would allow normal humans to face Gaia or Alaya on equal terms. Indeed, since Alaya is literally just the will of humanity as an entity I don't think it is conceptually possible for any one individual human to face it on equal terms. Whatever power that human possesses is by definition also possessed by Alaya itself.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: GabrieliosP on October 13, 2013, 10:20:18 PM
To add on Cherry Lover's answer: it's not that magic by itself died, just prana (the Atlas Institute still exist in the Extraverse because alchemy doesn't need prana, while the Mage's Association is pretty much in shambles). Also, prana started dying around the seventies, but disappeared for real in 1999.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 13, 2013, 11:34:13 PM
That seems to be a contradiction though; in the world of Notes, the World (both Gaia and Alaya) is dead, but Humanity continues to exist.  AFAIK, if Humanity dies, then Alaya ceases to exist, but if Alaya dies, Humanity can continue to exist.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 14, 2013, 12:04:28 AM
Gaia is dead in Notes, I don't recall anything saying that Alaya is. Alaya isn't "the world", Alaya is the spirit of humanity.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 14, 2013, 01:00:19 AM
Ah, I see.  But would that mean Alaya is out of control (seeing as there is nothing left to oppose it) in Notes?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 14, 2013, 01:08:17 AM
Alaya is just humanity. It can't do anything aside from act through humans to protect humans. And, yes, given that, in Notes, humans are capable of defeating the Ultimate Ones of other planets, I would say it is probably "out of control".

It is possible, though, that Alaya is gone in Notes since there aren't any "real" humans left.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 14, 2013, 01:23:34 AM
The Ether Liners are just modified Humans though.  Perhaps the Alaya at the time of FSN and other works set in that general time period is dead and gone, but if Alaya is Humanity, then Alaya probably changed/evolved along with it.  I guess that, along with the fact that Gaia is dead and the Ultimate Ones are out for Humanity (or post-Humanity), allowed the rise of the ridiculously powerful people like Ado Edem.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 14, 2013, 01:37:36 AM
I don't think Gaia actually holds humans back in that sense, and Alaya certainly wouldn't.

I'm not particularly well-informed on Notes itself, though, so I don't know about Ado Edem and the like.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 14, 2013, 01:46:20 AM
I don't think Gaia actually holds humans back in that sense...

It would actually...the Ether Liners 'eat away' at the planet to power their Knight Arms.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 14, 2013, 01:54:04 AM
Ah, OK, fair enough.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 14, 2013, 06:22:31 AM
Well here's an interesting question that just came to mind: if Kiritsugu at the height of his power faced off against Dark Sakura, could he live up to his reputation as the 'Magus Killer'?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: lantzblades on October 14, 2013, 09:53:17 AM
Trumped up title, also which Kiritsugu are we discuss pre or post fourth war?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 14, 2013, 11:15:30 AM
Pre-Fourth War.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: GabrieliosP on October 14, 2013, 11:19:52 AM
Yes, he'd kill her. Pre 4-th War Kiritsugu wouldn't think twice before murdering Dark Sakura if he were to meet her.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 14, 2013, 11:22:22 AM
So...how?  His usual MO: pound her with ordnance until all her circuits are active followed by an Origin Bullet between the eyes?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: GabrieliosP on October 14, 2013, 11:54:09 AM
My Kiritsugu-fu isn't that strong so I can't answer HOW he'd do it. But he'd be hell bent on trying to kill her, at least that I can assure.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 14, 2013, 05:51:27 PM
Yes, he'd kill her. Pre 4-th War Kiritsugu wouldn't think twice before murdering Dark Sakura if he were to meet her.

Pre-4th war Kiritsugu wouldn't think twice about murdering normal Sakura, honestly. Even as a child. Just being under Zouken's control is probably enough to make her a danger as far as he is concerned.

However, I'm not so sure he could kill Dark Sakura. She is exceptionally powerful, after all. Certainly if he got anywhere near her and she saw him she would kill him easily.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 15, 2013, 01:44:44 AM
However, I'm not so sure he could kill Dark Sakura. She is exceptionally powerful, after all. Certainly if he got anywhere near her and she saw him she would kill him easily.

Considering how ruthless he is, he might tip the Clock Tower or the Holy Church off.  Sakura could probably kill line Enforcers/Executors with ease, but if the Burial Agency or, Heaven forbid, Barthomeloi Lorelei gets involved, she'll probably get crushed like a bug.  Or worse, get a Sealing Designation or entombed by the Church.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 15, 2013, 01:52:01 AM
However, I'm not so sure he could kill Dark Sakura. She is exceptionally powerful, after all. Certainly if he got anywhere near her and she saw him she would kill him easily.

Considering how ruthless he is, he might tip the Clock Tower or the Holy Church off.  Sakura could probably kill line Enforcers/Executors with ease, but if the Burial Agency or, Heaven forbid, Barthomeloi Lorelei gets involved, she'll probably get crushed like a bug.  Or worse, get a Sealing Designation or entombed by the Church.

I doubt that the Church or Clock Tower would trust Kiritsugu, honestly. If he went anywhere near them, they'd probably kill him.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 15, 2013, 02:40:32 AM
No, they don't trust him.  But, AFAIK, they have been known to contract him to eliminate individuals they cannot move against openly, and they do respect his reputation.  And even if they won't accept his allegations against the Makiri, they will investigate anything or anyone that he cannot handle on his own.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 15, 2013, 05:16:41 PM
Well, I guess.

But, then, if Dark Sakura were around somehow (not entirely sure how it would happen, mind you...), I suspect she'd have already gone after the Association. And, I'm honestly not sure they could do much against her. Especially not if she had Dark Saber, and possibly Rider too.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 16, 2013, 12:16:24 AM
Well, I guess.

But, then, if Dark Sakura were around somehow (not entirely sure how it would happen, mind you...), I suspect she'd have already gone after the Association. And, I'm honestly not sure they could do much against her. Especially not if she had Dark Saber, and possibly Rider too.

Lorelei Barthomeloi's background has her among the few Humans capable of taking on a Servant in equal terms.  And the Clock Tower only represents a third of the Association.  Even if Dark Sakura can handle the Clock Tower, I doubt she could defeat Atlas.  They develop fearsome superweapons as a counter against the eventual end of the world - and it's implied they foresaw the world of Notes, seeing as the character Gun God in Notes actually wields a weapon recovered from the ruins of Atlas which was capable of killing a Type (I think it was either Type-Venus or Type-Saturn) in one shot.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 16, 2013, 12:36:44 AM
Well, Dark Sakura can also take on a servant, and she possesses several of them. As for Atlas, perhaps they would be more prepared.

Honestly, though, I don't really know if Dark Sakura could take down the Association if they went after her. You're probably right that, if they went after her and knew what they were up against, they could kill or (worse) capture her. However, if she went after them without them knowing she was coming or without them realising what she was capable of, she could easily kill the lot of them before they even realised what was happening.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 16, 2013, 11:56:50 AM
She could probably blindside the Clock Tower...but Atlas would probably predict her coming (although whether or not they actually warn the Clock Tower is up in the air).  In addition to overseeing the general development of alchemy, Atlas also predicts and develops countermeasures against threats to Humanity (why else would they build such powerful weapons and seal them away).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 16, 2013, 05:40:51 PM
Yeah, honestly, I have no idea what would happen in such a situation. I know nothing about Atlas....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 16, 2013, 11:53:57 PM
Yeah, honestly, I have no idea what would happen in such a situation. I know nothing about Atlas....

Just that even the proudest and most self-centered magi from the Clock Tower and even the most zealous priests know better than to take advantage of Atlas.

Moving on, is there any chance for the True Ancestors to return?  They seem much better people than the Dead Apostles; from what I gather, the True Ancestors seemed to have been highly-respected (or Arcueid was because of her connection with Zelretch) in their time whereas the Dead Apostles are viewed with hate by magi.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 17, 2013, 12:10:20 AM
I can't see how they would return, honestly, and I don't think Nasu has given any indication of them doing so. Also, weren't the True Ancestors mostly dicks?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 17, 2013, 12:16:09 AM
Also, weren't the True Ancestors mostly dicks?

No, those are the Dead Apostles.  The only True Ancestor ever portrayed is Arcueid, and if we take her as an example of their kind, they're very different from the Dead Apostles.  For one thing, the True Ancestors would sooner seal themselves away for eternity in their Marble Phantasms rather than succumb to the desire to drink blood and go insane.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 17, 2013, 12:23:07 AM
I recall that she is very definitely not a typical example of her kind, though. I think that they were pretty nasty, and that Dead Apostles were basically humans they'd captured and kept as slaves for feeding on. I also believe that Arc ended up killing the lot of them....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cursed by Creation on October 17, 2013, 12:53:26 AM
I think that they were pretty nasty, and that Dead Apostles were basically humans they'd captured and kept as slaves for feeding on.

AFAIK, that was an emergency solution that they never would have done otherwise (drinking the blood of a Dead Apostle won't drive a True Ancestor insane).  After the Dead Apostles rebelled, they decided to create Arcueid to destroy those of their kind who became Demon Lords (those who drank the blood of Humans and went insane as a result).  Afterwards, those who were left simply decided to sleep rather than lose control.

Quote
I also believe that Arc ended up killing the lot of them....

Only because she went temporarily insane after drinking Roa's blood.

Heh...here's a brief play on words from H.P. Lovecraft:

"In the Millennium Castle great Arcueid sleeps and dreams."
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 17, 2013, 09:42:36 PM
Well, I don't know much about the True Ancestors, so I can't really comment on that....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Oblivion on November 05, 2013, 10:34:10 PM
So, who are the top tiers in CCC? (Don't know if this should be marked as spoiler tough)
I've read some things here and ther about some of them, but don't know how powerful they are and I haven't had the time to play the game even if I have it.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on November 05, 2013, 10:57:16 PM
Hmm... from both what I've seen and looking it up, it seems to be something like this (has a few major spoilers, so watch out for that):

God tier:
BB and Kirara (All the World's Lust mode)

Gilgamesh and Tamamo (Goddess mode- not playable, but appears briefly in relation to Secret Garden stuff)

Exceptional Servant Tier:
Karna  Alter Egos may go here as well.

Maybe Saber? Though unlike Altria, she might go into Average Servant Tier.

Average Servant Tier:
Most of the other Servants I suspect. This includes Archer and both Lancers.

Weak Servant Tier:
Caster, both the playable one and Nursery Rhyme. Playable one might slide up higher due to being a glass cannon, but not 100% sure. 
If I'm wrong about anything, feel free to clarify what it is so I can try and fix it.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Oblivion on November 05, 2013, 11:09:43 PM
Hmm... from both what I've seen and looking it up, it seems to be something like this (has a few major spoilers, so watch out for that):

God tier:
BB and Kirara (All the World's Lust mode)

Gilgamesh and Tamamo (Goddess mode- not playable, but appears briefly in relation to Secret Garden stuff)

Exceptional Servant Tier:
Karna  Alter Egos may go here as well.

Maybe Saber? Though unlike Altria, she might go into Average Servant Tier.

Average Servant Tier:
Most of the other Servants I suspect. This includes Archer and both Lancers.

Weak Servant Tier:
Caster, both the playable one and Nursery Rhyme. Playable one might slide up higher due to being a glass cannon, but not 100% sure. 
If I'm wrong about anything, feel free to clarify what it is so I can try and fix it.

I see, then the top tiers have more or less that level. I asked because I've read some things, but thought that it was a bit exaggerated and wanted confirmation on it.

Guess I'll have to play that thing soon and see what things they made for us. Tough I don't like that much Gil... XD
Thanks for the info. :D
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on November 05, 2013, 11:18:44 PM
No problem at all, glad to be of help. :)
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: bhl88 on November 11, 2013, 01:03:03 AM
Gilgamesh is made up of 5 + a Servants in firepower.

IRL: Guts and brains can work together.

However, would Eye of True Mind (battle analysis by thinking up of X numbers of steps as long as you have a 1% chance of comeback) and a not very high rank [C-E] of Instinct work?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: lantzblades on November 11, 2013, 02:10:55 AM
Depends upon who is fighting whom
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 11, 2013, 02:16:40 AM
Gilgamesh is made up of 5 + a Servants in firepower.

IRL: Guts and brains can work together.

However, would Eye of True Mind (battle analysis by thinking up of X numbers of steps as long as you have a 1% chance of comeback) and a not very high rank [C-E] of Instinct work?

Eh, what are you asking here?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: bhl88 on November 11, 2013, 03:56:41 AM
lol I was checking what would be the response to this question if two different skills can work together.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 11, 2013, 04:25:09 AM
I see no reason why you couldn't possess and use both skills, no.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: bhl88 on November 11, 2013, 04:55:34 AM
It is easier to justify:
Instinct C (couldn't really tell the description of a C ranked version, since no one had it)
Eye of True Mind C (same here)
than:
Instinct (直感, Chokkan?) is the power to "feel" the most favorable developments for oneself during battle.
Instinct A Refined sixth sense is now close to true precognition. Bonus effect of reducing by half the penalties caused by obstructed vision and hearing.
Eye of True Mind ?
or
Eye of the Mind (True) (心眼(真), Shingan (Shin)?) is a heightened capacity for observation, refined through experience.

Eye of True Mind B (Capable of calm analysis of battle conditions even when in danger and deduce an appropriate course of action after considering all possibilities to escape from a predicament. So long there is even a 1% chance of a comeback, this ability greatly improves the chances of winning. )
Instinct ?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 11, 2013, 09:23:25 PM
It depends who you're talking about. Any of those things can be justified if they fit the hero in question.

What are the question marks for, though? I'm not totally sure how the three options differ....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: bhl88 on November 12, 2013, 12:09:07 AM
Oh. I was probably wondering how it would be possible though...
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on November 12, 2013, 12:30:31 AM
Well, that depends on the hero.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 21, 2013, 01:55:12 AM
I see no reason why you couldn't possess and use both skills, no.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean the answer is "no". Eye of the Mind False is specifically an acquired skill developed in people with NO sixth sense or prescience. It's like you don't see planes with both jet engines and propellers.
l2Nasu
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 21, 2013, 02:20:30 AM
Yeah, sure, I'm well aware that "I see no reason" is not the same as "there is definitely not any reason".
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 21, 2013, 02:24:11 AM
Quote
Q: What is the difference between Eye of the Mind True and False?

A: "True" is the insight and perception gained through training. If a human were to have the "Eye of the Mind" skill, its true mechanism of action then is not sixth sense but accumulation of experience. As a result, it is designated as "True". "False" of course is the opposite. It is the "perception and resolution of the current situation" through the sixth sense. "False" is something that can never be achieved through training or experience. Really, the former should be "False" and the later should be "True". However, I hope you can discern my intention in this reversal.

Quote
Eye of the Mind (True): B
A danger-avoidance ability that utilises the intelligence collected up to the current time as the basis, in order to predict the opponent’s activity and change the current situation. This is not a result of talent, but an overwhelming amount of combat experience. A weapon wielded by none other than a mortal, gained through tenacious training. Using Eye of the Mind, Emiya was able to successfully counter Cú Chulainn’s thrusts that were invisible to the eye.
Even with Rank B Eye of the Mind (True), Emiya was unable to see through Emiya Shirou’s passion-infused strike which put “ideal” on the line.

They are effectively mutually exclusive. The lack of intuition forces the person to develop Eye of the Mind False.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on December 21, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
Hmm, I guess I have a question, about projection specifically. I know at least that most magi stay away from using projection because it's impractical for the prana cost and the amount of time said projection can be maintained because of that, but is there anything more specific on those limits? I would imagine it to be more difficult to create something with more intricate parts, or something larger, but I'm not sure to what extent.

To approach my question from a different angle, about how long would someone of Rin's calibur be able to maintain a rubber ball, a sword, and a motorized vehicle respectively? I would imagine that that last one would probably kill her at least after a short period of time, but that's been contested recently, so having a lore master taking a look at it isn't a bad idea.

Also, did Extra Material do anything to clarify for sure whether the Nameless Hero/Extra's version of EMIYA is contracted to the Moon Cell instead of Alaya? I'm pretty sure that it's true, but I just want to be sure. 
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 23, 2013, 01:28:50 AM
Hmm, I guess I have a question, about projection specifically. I know at least that most magi stay away from using projection because it's impractical for the prana cost and the amount of time said projection can be maintained because of that, but is there anything more specific on those limits? I would imagine it to be more difficult to create something with more intricate parts, or something larger, but I'm not sure to what extent.

To approach my question from a different angle, about how long would someone of Rin's calibur be able to maintain a rubber ball, a sword, and a motorized vehicle respectively? I would imagine that that last one would probably kill her at least after a short period of time, but that's been contested recently, so having a lore master taking a look at it isn't a bad idea.
Don't know. But we do know that projection is not worthwhile enough that even master magi don't bother with it. Its function is mostly scamming the World during a ritual, by projecting a rare/non-existent ingredient.
Shirou's projections last long because UBW came with some hardcore structural analysis (the wireframe stove scene in Stay Night), so he can project things better even than master magi (who cannot perceive the minute details).
I would say Rin's rubber ball or swords are probably terrible compared to Shirou's. And she can't project a car, because the World will break it down faster than she can image it.
Quote
Also, did Extra Material do anything to clarify for sure whether the Nameless Hero/Extra's version of EMIYA is contracted to the Moon Cell instead of Alaya? I'm pretty sure that it's true, but I just want to be sure.
EXTRA EMIYA is not exactly EMIYA. He is not longer just "faceless Japanese Guardian NO. 103245356346", but a place-holder of all Guardians.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 23, 2013, 01:38:27 AM
So, the fact that it's just a mundane object doesn't matter, it would still be impossible to project for a normal magus? And, is it impossible to make a projected object remain around indefinitely even if you have an infinite prana supply to maintain it with?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Arch-Magos Winter on December 23, 2013, 01:40:19 AM
I'd say correct.

Even if you have an infinite prana supply keeping the image steady would be flat out impossible.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 23, 2013, 01:48:35 AM
So, the fact that it's just a mundane object doesn't matter, it would still be impossible to project for a normal magus?
Perfection is impossible. Projection will break eventually. However, the closer you can get to the original, the longer it will last.

Quote
And, is it impossible to make a projected object remain around indefinitely even if you have an infinite prana supply to maintain it with?

After you project something, the deed is done. Mana is converted to matter. You can further reinforce it, but that is not projection anymore. Reinforcing something is not going to save it from being rejected by the World. If anything, it will draw more attention from the World by emphasizing the anomaly.

You can theoretically shield the object by insulating it from the World, but that is beside the point.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on December 23, 2013, 05:45:08 AM
Honestly, this all makes me glad I asked, this is pretty interesting stuff. So unless you're fortunate enough to have Structural Analysis (IE be Emiya Shirou), projection is pretty useless outside of a few rare instances then. It also seems that I was correct about the car being close to impossible to project, even if I didn't understand the logistics of why at the time.

EXTRA EMIYA is not exactly EMIYA. He is not longer just "faceless Japanese Guardian NO. 103245356346", but a place-holder of all Guardians.
Ah, OK. I think I actually remember the Nameless Hero saying something to that effect/something similar in his third Matrix conversation towards the end of Fate/Extra, but wasn't for sure if that meant he wasn't exactly EMIYA or not. Thank you for the clarification.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 27, 2013, 07:44:51 PM
It's like why do you grow your own wheat, mill your own flour to make pasta when you can get a pack in the supermarket for 50 cents.

Why do you beat yourself half to death to project a car when you can get one for 10k?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 27, 2013, 07:49:49 PM
Well, she's thinking of a very specific thing that happened in the Cross Effects RP, so in that case buying a car wasn't an option.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 27, 2013, 07:57:24 PM
Then fly, or something.

Do mage stuff.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 27, 2013, 08:43:58 PM
What about if you're with a bunch of people who are not particularly competent mages (but who are aware of magic)? And one of whom is in a wheelchair?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 27, 2013, 08:58:46 PM
Mod that wheelchair.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 27, 2013, 09:03:58 PM
What?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on December 27, 2013, 09:23:16 PM
....Hmm, yeah, that'd actually be more plausible than projecting the car really, using reinforcement somehow to make the wheelchair easier to work with on that front. Honestly, given all the weird, distinctly uncanon things this particular set of characters has, I'm actually surprised that said wheelchair bound character has a perfectly normal wheelchair, come to think of it.

I guess while we're asking questions related to stuff that was questioned done by this person... even though what happened in Hollow Ataraxia was All A Dream, a Servant version of Angra Manyu would be pretty much exactly like Avenger abilities-wise minus the time loop thing, wouldn't they? Because the version of Avenger in the RP was somehow able to control grail mud and use it to help manifest/possess a castle while having multiple physical human forms at the same time, which I don't know if is really plausible or not.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 27, 2013, 09:28:12 PM
Well, the car thing you might have a good point with, but it's pretty clear that Lantz's Angra Mainyu is not the same as the servant form you see in HA. He said to me that he only wrote "servant" on the sheet because he wasn't sure what else to put. The version Lantz is playing is literally an incarnation of all the evils of the world.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Alice on December 27, 2013, 09:34:46 PM
Ah, OK- that wasn't probably the right thing to put on the sheet in his case then, as it makes her seem like something she's not.

I guess then in addition to my last question, I'll ask if Angra Manyu actually managed to manifest like Cherry just mentioned, and somehow not just try to destroy everything (which is a bit off by itself, really), would he/she actually have those abilities?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 27, 2013, 09:46:07 PM
If you have literal incarnation of All the World's Evil, then you get the amorphous shadow with no personality or powers. All the World's Evil is a void.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 27, 2013, 10:57:58 PM
Ah, OK- that wasn't probably the right thing to put on the sheet in his case then, as it makes her seem like something she's not.

Yeah, Lantz admitted to that.

If you have literal incarnation of All the World's Evil, then you get the amorphous shadow with no personality or powers. All the World's Evil is a void.

How does that differ from Avenger, then?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: lantzblades on December 27, 2013, 11:55:42 PM
It is a shadow that is to gain an ego so to speak. Yeah I'm referencing persona with that but it fits it the case of the RP. And I admitted to (and had planned for) the projection was sketchy at best but it was my only effective option at the time to not leave the characters stranded.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 27, 2013, 11:57:32 PM
It is a shadow that is to gain an ego so to speak.

Hmm, so Angra is basically Kuro's bigger, more intelligent sister...?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: waifu slayer on December 28, 2013, 12:27:02 AM
Ah, OK- that wasn't probably the right thing to put on the sheet in his case then, as it makes her seem like something she's not.

Yeah, Lantz admitted to that.

If you have literal incarnation of All the World's Evil, then you get the amorphous shadow with no personality or powers. All the World's Evil is a void.

How does that differ from Avenger, then?

All the World's Evil is basically an idea. Avenger is the idea tagged onto Shirou's personality.

Essentially Avenger is blackened Shirou.

An incarnated Angra Mainyu alone was just that man-shaped blob thing summoned in the Third War and was quickly knocked out.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: lantzblades on December 28, 2013, 12:34:52 AM
Similar yes mike, although Angra has gained something more then that.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on December 28, 2013, 12:37:28 AM
Similar yes mike, although Angra has gained something more then that.

Eh, what do you mean?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 12, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
This is going to be a bit of a huge post, for which I apologize. If this should be somewhere else or there's a better way to do this, tell me and I'll do so!

So! I have a question for y'all for a fanfiction I'm in the design stages of at the moment.

First off, let’s assume that a living person is summoned as a Servant (Yes, I am aware that this is basically impossible, consider this a given).

Second, while Servants in the Fate series are Heroic Spirits 'squeezed' into their Class Containers, at what point do the stats of a ‘True’ Heroic Spirit start getting squeezed into a class container?
Now, following the ‘True’ stats of the character, at what point would you consider him to cross the line from ‘guy’ to ‘Hero/Servant-Worthy’? At what point would he start getting squeezed into a Class Container? How would you squeeze them at that point?


(Side Note: Yes I'm aware that there's no Second Swing. It's functionally identical to the First Swing from the Servant Stat perspective)
---

First Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: E-
Endurance: E-
Agility: E-
Mana: E-
Luck: A
Noble Phantasm: E-

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Encyclopedic Knowledge C Rank:
A result of his Prodigy skill over the course of his life, Archer has a wide range of knowledge to draw from.

Noble Phantasms
Impossible Knowledge B Rank:
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

---
Third Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: E-
Endurance: E-
Agility: E-
Mana: E
Luck: A
Noble Phantasm: C

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Encyclopedic Knowledge C Rank:
A result of his Prodigy skill over the course of his life, Archer has a wide range of knowledge to draw from.

Thaumaturgy E Rank:
A very basic understanding of modern Thaumaturgy.

Arcane Language E Rank:
A lesser form of the Divine Language from the Age of the Gods. It requires far more words and speech to achieve the same effect, though it is by practice stored within the mind of the spellcaster.
At this level, it reduces the effective casting time of selected spells by two verses to a minimum of a single line.


Noble Phantasms
Impossible Knowledge B Rank:
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Vibroblade D Rank Anti-Personnel
An extremely hard sword that vibrates at an insane speed, allowing it to chainsaw its way through many things.

Blaster Weaponry C Rank Anti Personnel
Powerful weaponry from a possible far flung future or distant past, they fire concentrated blasts of plasma which are effectively B rank attacks in of themselves. The phantasm’s rank is ‘only’ C due to the harsh ammunition limits of the weapons while used at this power setting.


---
Fourth Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: E
Endurance: E
Agility: E
Mana: E
Luck: A
Noble Phantasm: C

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Encyclopedic Knowledge C Rank:
A result of his Prodigy skill over the course of his life, Archer has a wide range of knowledge to draw from.

Thaumaturgy E Rank:
A very basic understanding of modern Thaumaturgy.

Arcane Language D Rank:
A lesser form of the Divine Language from the Age of the Gods. It requires far more words and speech to achieve the same effect, though it is by practice stored within the mind of the spellcaster.
At this level, it reduces the effective casting time of selected spells by four verses to a minimum of a single line.

Weaponmaster A Rank:
Archer magically resonates with any weapon he wields, and may lay claim to any weapon he touches. While wielding a weapon, he increases all of his physical stats and skill by half a rank. This is already accounted for in his statline as his ever-present armor counts as a weapon.


Noble Phantasms
Impossible Knowledge B Rank:
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Future Arsenal C Rank Anti-Personnel
A set of weapons from a possible future or the far flung past, they include a variety of individually powerful weapons.
Including vibroblades, extremely hard swords that vibrates at insane speeds, allowing them to chainsaw their way through many things.
It also includes ranged weapons which fire concentrated blasts of plasma which are effectively B rank attacks in of themselves.

Lightsaber A Rank Anti Personnel
An unimaginably powerful cutting weapon, a blazing hot monomolecular chainsaw. This weapon is unimaginably powerful and only magic can stop its cut.

Babbo C Rank Anti-Unit
A sentient hammer and flail combination, Babbo is capable of changing his size and mass in an instant, up to the size of a house. The users strength for the purposes of using Babbo is treated as one rank higher.

Derflinger B Rank Anti-Magic, Anti-Personnel
An ancient blade, having seen six thousand years of use, Derflinger is one of the greatest anti-magic blades to ever exist, drinking in the power of any spell of A rank or less. Effects such as Reality Marbles, Sorcery, and Marble Phantasms are unable to be affected.

---
Fifth Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: E
Endurance: E
Agility: E
Mana: E
Luck: A
Noble Phantasm: B

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Reservoir of Knowledge B Rank:
Archer has a massive pool of knowledge and skills to draw from. It can reasonably be assumed that he is able to perform any learnable skill at D rank. He is able to use the following skills at C rank: Riding, Eye of the Mind (True), Presence Concealment, Territory Creation, Clairvoyance, Instinct, and Military Tactics.

Thaumaturgy D Rank:
A basic understanding of modern Thaumaturgy.

Arcane Language D Rank:
A lesser form of the Divine Language from the Age of the Gods. It requires far more words and speech to achieve the same effect, though it is by practice stored within the mind of the spellcaster.
At this level, it reduces the effective casting time of selected spells by four verses to a minimum of a single line.

Weaponmaster A Rank:
Archer magically resonates with any weapon he wields, and may lay claim to any weapon he touches. While wielding a weapon, he increases all of his physical stats and skill by half a rank. This is already accounted for in his statline as his ever-present armor counts as a weapon.


Noble Phantasms
Armor of the Traveler D Rank Support
A powerful suit of armor, it reduces the power of any elemental based attack by two ranks. It also has a barrier that, when activated, allows Archer to ignore any attack of only E rank. An attack that pierces this barrier has its power reduced by one rank while reducing power of the protection by half a rank.

Impossible Knowledge B Rank:
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Future Arsenal C Rank Anti-Personnel
A set of weapons from a possible future or the far flung past, they include a variety of individually powerful weapons.
Including vibroblades, extremely hard swords that vibrates at insane speeds, allowing them to chainsaw their way through many things.
It also includes ranged weapons which fire concentrated blasts of plasma which are effectively B rank attacks in of themselves.

Lightsaber A Rank Anti Personnel
An unimaginably powerful cutting weapon, a blazing hot monomolecular chainsaw. This weapon is unimaginably powerful and only magic can stop its cut.

Babbo C Rank Anti-Unit
A sentient hammer and flail combination, Babbo is capable of changing his size and mass in an instant, up to the size of a house. The users strength for the purposes of using Babbo is treated as one rank higher.

Derflinger B Rank Anti-Magic, Anti-Personnel
An ancient blade, having seen six thousand years of use, Derflinger is one of the greatest anti-magic blades to ever exist, drinking in the power of any spell of A rank or less. Effects such as Reality Marbles, Sorcery, and Marble Phantasms are unable to be affected.

---
Sixth Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: D
Endurance: D
Agility: E
Mana: E
Luck: A
Noble Phantasm: B

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Reservoir of Knowledge B Rank:
Archer has a massive pool of knowledge and skills to draw from. It can reasonably be assumed that he is able to perform any learnable skill at D rank. He is able to use the following skills at C rank: Riding, Eye of the Mind (True), Presence Concealment, Territory Creation, Clairvoyance, Instinct, and Military Tactics.

Thaumaturgy D Rank:
A basic understanding of modern Thaumaturgy.

Arcane Language C Rank:
A lesser form of the Divine Language from the Age of the Gods. It requires far more words and speech to achieve the same effect, though it is by practice stored within the mind of the spellcaster.
At this level, it reduces the effective casting time of selected spells by five verses to a minimum of a single line.

Item Creation C Rank
Archer can create reasonably powerful Mystic Codes

Divinity D Rank
While himself not a demigod, Archer stole the spark of divinity from a powerful Demigod of Murder.

Weaponmaster A Rank:
Archer magically resonates with any weapon he wields, and may lay claim to any weapon he touches. While wielding a weapon, he increases all of his physical stats and skill by half a rank. This is already accounted for in his statline as his ever-present armor counts as a weapon.


Noble Phantasms
Armor of the Traveler B Rank Support
A powerful suit of armor that combines technology from various potential futures and significant magic to defend and enhance its wearer. It reduces the power of any elemental or physical based attack by two ranks, physical attacks drain some of the energy of the armor. Smaller, faster items such as bullets are affected even more, reduce the power of all arrows and bullets by three ranks.
It also has a barrier that, when activated, allows Archer to ignore any attack of only E rank. An attack that pierces this barrier has its power reduced by one rank while reducing power of the protection by half a rank. This final barrier is affected after the others.

Impossible Knowledge B Rank:
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Arsenal of the Traveler D - B Rank Anti-Personnel
A set of weapons from a possible future or the far flung past, they include a variety of individually powerful weapons. It includes vibroblades, mass driver weapons that fire tiny slugs of metal at hypersonic velocities, and weapons that can fire concentrated blasts of plasma.

Lightsaber A Rank Anti-Personnel
An unimaginably powerful cutting weapon, a blazing hot monomolecular chainsaw. This weapon is unimaginably powerful and only magic can stop its cut.

Babbo C Rank Anti-Unit
A sentient hammer and flail combination, Babbo is capable of changing his size and mass in an instant, up to the size of a house. The users strength for the purposes of using Babbo is treated as one rank higher.

Derflinger B Rank Anti-Magic, Anti-Personnel
An ancient blade, having seen six thousand years of use, Derflinger is one of the greatest anti-magic blades to ever exist, drinking in the power of any spell of A rank or less. Effects such as Reality Marbles, Sorcery, and Marble Phantasms are unable to be affected.

---
Seventh Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: D
Endurance: D
Agility: D
Mana: E
Luck: E (A)
Noble Phantasm: A

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Reservoir of Knowledge B Rank:
Archer has a massive pool of knowledge and skills to draw from. It can reasonably be assumed that he is able to perform any learnable skill at D rank. He is able to use the following skills at C rank: Riding, Eye of the Mind (True), Presence Concealment, Territory Creation, Clairvoyance, Instinct, and Military Tactics.

Thaumaturgy E Rank:
A very basic understanding of modern Thaumaturgy.

Arcane Language D Rank:
A lesser form of the Divine Language from the Age of the Gods. It requires far more words and speech to achieve the same effect, though it is by practice stored within the mind of the spellcaster.
At this level, it reduces the effective casting time of selected spells by five verses to a minimum of a single line.

Item Creation B Rank
Archer can create powerful Mystic Codes

Divinity D Rank
While himself not a demigod, Archer stole the spark of divinity from a powerful Demigod of Murder.

Weaponmaster A Rank:
Archer magically resonates with any weapon he wields, and may lay claim to any weapon he touches. While wielding a weapon, he increases all of his physical stats and skill by half a rank. This is already accounted for in his statline as his ever-present armor counts as a weapon.


Noble Phantasms
Armor of the Traveler B Rank Support
A powerful suit of armor that combines technology from various potential futures and significant magic to defend and enhance its wearer. It reduces the power of any elemental or physical based attack by two ranks, physical attacks drain some of the energy of the armor. Smaller, faster items such as bullets are affected even more, reduce the power of all arrows and bullets by three ranks.
It also has a barrier that, when activated, allows Archer to ignore any attack of only E rank. An attack that pierces this barrier has its power reduced by one rank while reducing power of the protection by half a rank. This final barrier is affected after the others.

Impossible Knowledge B Rank:
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Arsenal of the Traveler D - B Rank Anti-Personnel
A set of weapons from a possible future or the far flung past, they include a variety of individually powerful weapons. It includes vibroblades, mass driver weapons that fire tiny slugs of metal at hypersonic velocities, weapons that can fire concentrated blasts of plasma as well as a variety of magical weapons.

Lightsaber A Rank Anti-Personnel
An unimaginably powerful cutting weapon, a blazing hot monomolecular chainsaw. This weapon is unimaginably powerful and only magic can stop its cut.

Babbo C Rank Anti-Unit
A sentient hammer and flail combination, Babbo is capable of changing his size and mass in an instant, up to the size of a house. The users strength for the purposes of using Babbo is treated as one rank higher.

Derflinger B Rank Anti-Magic, Anti-Personnel
An ancient blade, having seen six thousand years of use, Derflinger is one of the greatest anti-magic blades to ever exist, drinking in the power of any spell of A rank or less. Effects such as Reality Marbles, Sorcery, and Marble Phantasms are unable to be affected.

Fateless A Rank Anti-Fate
Archer is utterly immune to the powers of Fate, Destiny, and Luck. No effect drawing on these can touch him unless he chooses otherwise. Increase the power of his attacks against those particularly bound by Fate by one rank.
Archer has no luck one way or the other, represented by his E-rank Luck stat. But he may choose to have whatever luck rating he desires when facing a Luck Check.

---
Eighth Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: D (C)
Endurance: C
Agility: D (C)
Mana: E (B)
Luck: E (A)
Noble Phantasm: A

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Magic Resistance B Rank

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Reservoir of Knowledge A Rank:
Archer has a massive pool of knowledge and skills to draw from. It can reasonably be assumed that he is able to perform any learnable skill at D rank. He is able to use the following skills at B rank: Riding, Eye of the Mind (True), Presence Concealment, Territory Creation, Clairvoyance, Instinct, and Military Tactics.

Thaumaturgy C Rank:
A solid understanding of modern Thaumaturgy.

Arcane Language C Rank:
A lesser form of the Divine Language from the Age of the Gods. It requires far more words and speech to achieve the same effect, though it is by practice stored within the mind of the spellcaster.
At this level, it reduces the effective casting time of selected spells by Six verses to a minimum of a single line.

Item Creation A+ Rank
Archer can create B rank Noble Phantasms provided the time and materials.

Divinity D Rank
While himself not a demigod, Archer stole the spark of divinity from a powerful Demigod of Murder.

Weaponmaster A Rank:
Archer magically resonates with any weapon he wields, and may lay claim to any weapon he touches. While wielding a weapon, he increases all of his physical stats and skill by half a rank. This is already accounted for in his statline as his ever-present armor counts as a weapon.

Battle Continuation A Rank
While Lancer’s represents his determination to never give up and Berserkers represents his ability to not die, Archer’s represents a combination of his resilient body and his intense regenerative abilities. Any wound that is not decisively fatal will be healed within a day unless it bypasses his regeneration. Dragon-Bane weapons, weapons of sunlight or purifying weapons bypass his regeneration.

Noble Phantasms
Armor of the Traveler A+ Rank Support
One of the most powerful Defensive and Support Phantasms in existence, this suit of armor combines technology from various potential futures and significant magic to defend and enhance its wearer. It reduces the power of any elemental or physical based attack by three ranks, physical attacks drain some of the energy of the armor. Smaller, faster items such as bullets are affected even more, reduce the power of all arrows and bullets by four ranks.
The armor can create a barrier of crystalized Mana around the wearer, creating glowing runic inscriptions upon the air. The power of this barrier is based on the amount of mana in the atmosphere around them. In Fuyuki City or other Leyline areas, it reduces the power of all attacks by one rank. In areas of normal prana distribution, it’s reduced by half a rank.
The armor’s final barrier is one that, when activated, allows Archer to ignore any attack of D Rank or lower. An attack that pierces this barrier has its power reduced by one rank while reducing power of the protection by half a rank.
The armor proper is nearly indestructible. While it doesn’t stop all damage, it reduces all incoming damage significantly, E rank attacks can barely be felt.
The armor also increases its wearers’ Strength and Agility by one rank (Noted in his statline).
In addition to its numerous lesser effects, the armor may shift its appearance at a minimal prana cost, appearing to all natural senses to be its new form, but it's protections and weight do not change.

Barrier Shield B Rank Defensive
Based on the same defensive principles as his armor, the Barrier Shield is a powerful Defensive Phantasm. The barriers it generates are identical to those the armor does, though only a plane of force rather than an all-encompassing barrier. Combined with his Armor of the Traveler, no attack may harm him.

Impossible Knowledge B Rank
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Eyes of the Demon C Rank Support
Archer's eyes pierce through all illusions regardless of their rank and allow him to perform D-rank Hypnosis or D-Rank Stat reduction on any that meet his gaze.

Arsenal of the Traveler D - A Rank Anti-Personnel
An arsenal of weapons collected from the depths of the Kalediscope and crafted by Archer’s own hands. Weapons from potential future and Ages of the Gods, weapons of advanced technology and powerful magic.
Some standouts in this arsenal include Derflinger, the Null Magic sword, Babbo, the Hammer and Flail, the Widowmaker, a rifle that fires slugs of metal at hypersonic speeds, Deadeye, the plasma sniper that fires concentrated blasts of superheated plasma, and Carsomyr, a powerful holy blade.

Arsenal Bow A Rank Anti Personnel
This massive recurve bow stands as tall as Archer himself and its center is far bulkier than normal. Any arrow fired from this bow flies at an astounding speed, few arrows can even survive the hypersonic transit. Anything fired by the bow also swerves around obstacles as it seeks its target. This bow is used by Archer to fire blades from his Arsenal of the Traveler at his foes like Arrows.

Interitus A Rank Anti-Unit
The single greatest Weapon Phantasm that Archer possesses. It is a sword designed by Archer, for Archer. It is an extremely strong and dense material mixed with a fraction of Starmetal, several times heavier than a normal sword, it is suffused with prana, forged in dragon fire, with liquid Prana runes worked into its length and was quenched in his own tainted blood.
The blade vibrates faster than the eye can see at a microscopic level, the sword tearing through anything it hits like a chainsaw. It hums and moans while drawn and swung, but when it cuts it screams like twisting metal and tortured souls.
The sword is unholy, tainted by his blood, and should any other attempt to wield the sword, it shall consume a portion of the wielders health, and it is strongest in his hands. The blade reeks of hatred, enhanced again and again to be the bane of various beings and powered by its’ tainted nature and its wielders instinctive hunger it has been suffused with both. That which would harm, that which is corrupt, these are the things the blade particularly hates and seeks to destroy and consume. Even as an Unholy blade, it is also powerful against other Unholy weapons as it consumes their power.
However, while the swords’ core is the concept of “Projection and Amplification of Energy”, the weapon is a crystallization of Archers’ travels through the Kalediscope, a weapon of “Beyond”, beyond destruction, beyond time and space, beyond the Earth itself. As such, it is a weapon capable of countering Ea with its own concepts.
Its greatest power is when invoked, flooded with Archers’ Od and the surrounding Mana, it converts it all into a destructive wave of energy.

Fateless A Rank Anti-Fate
Archer is utterly immune to the powers of Fate, Destiny, and Luck. No effect drawing on these can touch him unless he chooses otherwise. Increase the power of his attacks against those particularly bound by Fate by one rank.
Archer has no luck one way or the other, represented by his E-rank Luck stat. But he may choose to have whatever luck rating he desires when facing a Luck Check.
---
Ninth Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: D (C)
Endurance: C
Agility: D (C)
Mana: D (A)
Luck: E (A)
Noble Phantasm: A++

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Magic Resistance B Rank

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Reservoir of Knowledge A Rank:
Archer has a massive pool of knowledge and skills to draw from. It can reasonably be assumed that he is able to perform any learnable skill at D rank. He is able to use the following skills at B rank: Riding, Eye of the Mind (True), Presence Concealment, Territory Creation, Clairvoyance, Instinct, and Military Tactics.

Traveler’s Magic B Rank:
Archer has a solid understanding of many different forms of magic of many different disciplines. Archer may use the following forms of Magic at rank C: Thaumaturgy, Rune Magic, Arcane Language, Mana Manipulation, and Fade Magic. While his raw Prana is not high, his effective Mana is many times greater than what he can store as noted in his statline.

Item Creation EX
Archer can create A rank Noble Phantasms provided the time and materials.

Divinity D Rank
While himself not a demigod, Archer stole the spark of divinity from a powerful Demigod of Murder.

Weaponmaster A Rank:
Archer magically resonates with any weapon he wields, and may lay claim to any weapon he touches. While wielding a weapon, he increases all of his physical stats and skill by half a rank. This is already accounted for in his statline as his ever-present armor counts as a weapon.

Battle Continuation A Rank
While Lancer’s represents his determination to never give up and Berserkers represents his ability to not die, Archer’s represents a combination of his resilient body and his intense regenerative abilities. Any wound that is not decisively fatal will be healed within a day unless it bypasses his regeneration. Dragon-Bane weapons, weapons of sunlight or purifying weapons bypass his regeneration.

Transformation EX Rank
Archer can transform into one, and only one other form. That of a Dragon. In this form, Archer is unable to use his Noble Phantasms other than Fateless and most of his Skills are useless, but his Strength, Agility, Endurance, and Mana are all EX rated.

Noble Phantasms
Armor of the Traveler A+ Rank Support
One of the most powerful Defensive and Support Phantasms in existence, this suit of armor combines technology from various potential futures and significant magic to defend and enhance its wearer. It reduces the power of any elemental or physical based attack by three ranks, physical attacks drain some of the energy of the armor. Smaller, faster items such as bullets are affected even more, reduce the power of all arrows and bullets by four ranks.
The armor can create a barrier of crystalized Mana around the wearer, creating glowing runic inscriptions upon the air. The power of this barrier is based on the amount of mana in the atmosphere around them. In Fuyuki City or other Leyline areas, it reduces the power of all attacks by one rank. In areas of normal prana distribution, it’s reduced by half a rank.
The armor’s final barrier is one that, when activated, allows Archer to ignore any attack of D Rank or lower. An attack that pierces this barrier has its power reduced by one rank while reducing power of the protection by half a rank.
The armor proper is nearly indestructible. While it doesn’t stop all damage, it reduces all incoming damage significantly, E rank attacks can barely be felt.
The armor also increases its wearers’ Strength and Agility by one rank (Noted in his statline).
In addition to its numerous lesser effects, the armor may shift its appearance at a minimal prana cost, appearing to all natural senses to be its new form, but it's protections and weight do not change.

Barrier Shield B Rank Defensive
Based on the same defensive principles as his armor, the Barrier Shield is a powerful Defensive Phantasm. The barriers it generates are identical to those the armor does, though only a plane of force rather than an all-encompassing barrier. Combined with his Armor of the Traveler, no attack may harm him.

Impossible Knowledge B Rank
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Eyes of the Demon C Rank Support
Archer's eyes pierce through all illusions regardless of their rank and allow him to perform D-rank Hypnosis or D-Rank Stat reduction on any that meet his gaze.

Arsenal of the Traveler D - A Rank Anti-Personnel
An arsenal of weapons collected from the depths of the Kalediscope and crafted by Archer’s own hands. Weapons from potential future and Ages of the Gods, weapons of advanced technology and powerful magic.
Some standouts in this arsenal include Derflinger, the Null Magic sword, Babbo, the Hammer and Flail, the Widowmaker, a rifle that fires slugs of metal at hypersonic speeds, Deadeye, the plasma sniper that fires concentrated blasts of superheated plasma, and Carsomyr, a powerful holy blade.

Arsenal Bow A Rank Anti Personnel
This massive recurve bow stands as tall as Archer himself and its center is far bulkier than normal. Any arrow fired from this bow flies at an astounding speed, few arrows can even survive the hypersonic transit. Anything fired by the bow also swerves around obstacles as it seeks its target. This bow is used by Archer to fire blades from his Arsenal of the Traveler at his foes like Arrows.

Interitus A Rank Anti-Unit
The single greatest Weapon Phantasm that Archer possesses. It is a sword designed by Archer, for Archer. It is an extremely strong and dense material mixed with a fraction of Starmetal, several times heavier than a normal sword, it is suffused with prana, forged in dragon fire, with liquid Prana runes worked into its length and was quenched in his own tainted blood.
The blade vibrates faster than the eye can see at a microscopic level, the sword tearing through anything it hits like a chainsaw. It hums and moans while drawn and swung, but when it cuts it screams like twisting metal and tortured souls.
The sword is unholy, tainted by his blood, and should any other attempt to wield the sword, it shall consume a portion of the wielders health, and it is strongest in his hands. The blade reeks of hatred, enhanced again and again to be the bane of various beings and powered by its’ tainted nature and its wielders instinctive hunger it has been suffused with both. That which would harm, that which is corrupt, these are the things the blade particularly hates and seeks to destroy and consume. Even as an Unholy blade, it is also powerful against other Unholy weapons as it consumes their power.
However, while the swords’ core is the concept of “Projection and Amplification of Energy”, the weapon is a crystallization of Archers’ travels through the Kalediscope, a weapon of “Beyond”, beyond destruction, beyond time and space, beyond the Earth itself. As such, it is a weapon capable of countering Ea with its own concepts.
Its greatest power is when invoked, flooded with Archers’ Od and the surrounding Mana, it converts it all into a destructive wave of energy.

Fateless A Rank Anti-Fate
Archer is utterly immune to the powers of Fate, Destiny, and Luck. No effect drawing on these can touch him unless he chooses otherwise. Increase the power of his attacks against those particularly bound by Fate by one rank.
Archer has no luck one way or the other, represented by his E-rank Luck stat. But he may choose to have whatever luck rating he desires when facing a Luck Check.

---
Tenth Swing
Name: [REDACTED]
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: Lawful Good

Stats:
Strength: C+
Endurance: B+
Agility: C+
Mana: C (A+)
Luck: E (A)
Noble Phantasm: EX

Skills
Living Spirit EX Rank:
This replaces Independent Action that most Archer’s have, representing Archer’s nature as a living being summoned as a Servant.
Archer needs no support from his Master to respire Prana or resist the effects of Gaia’s attempts to correct him. However, Archer is unable to exist in this world without a Master to anchor him.

Magic Resistance A Rank

Prodigy B Rank:
The Servant is able to learn at an absolutely prodigous speed provided certain conditions are met about either how the knowledge is gained or the kind of knowledge.
When Archer is being taught a skill, he learns 40 times faster than a normal person.

Reservoir of Knowledge A+ Rank:
Archer has a massive pool of knowledge and skills to draw from. It can reasonably be assumed that he is able to perform any learnable skill at C rank. He is able to use the following skills at A rank: Riding, Eye of the Mind (True), Presence Concealment, Instinct, and Military Tactics.

Traveler’s Magic EX Rank:
Archer has a solid understanding of many different forms of magic of many different disciplines and is considered an Archmage in many worlds.
While the amount of prana he has available is relatively small, he can do things with it that would boggle the minds of even Mages from the Age of Gods.
This Skill represents Archer possessing the following skills at A rank: Territory Creation, Thaumaturgy, Rune Magic, Arcane Language, Mana Manipulation, Fade Magic, Clairvoyance, His effective Mana rating is much higher than his actual listing and is noted in his statline.

Item Creation EX
Archer can create A rank Noble Phantasms provided the time and materials.

Divinity D Rank
While himself not a demigod, Archer stole the spark of divinity from a powerful Demigod of Murder.

Weaponmaster A Rank:
Archer magically resonates with any weapon he wields, and may lay claim to any weapon he touches. While wielding a weapon, he increases all of his physical stats and skill by half a rank. This is already accounted for in his statline as his ever-present armor counts as a weapon.

Battle Continuation A+ Rank
While Lancer’s represents his determination to never give up and Berserkers represents his ability to not die, Archer’s represents a combination of his resilient body and his intense regenerative abilities. Any wound that is not decisively fatal will be healed within a day unless it bypasses his regeneration. Dragon-Bane weapons, weapons of sunlight or purifying weapons bypass his regeneration.
Uniquely, the only truly fatal blow for Archer is a blow to the head. Archer has multiple hearts that may be damaged or destroyed without damaging his spiritual core.

Transformation EX Rank
Archer can transform into one, and only one other form. That of a Dragon. In this form, Archer is unable to use his Noble Phantasms other than Fateless and most of his Skills are useless, but his Strength, Agility, Endurance, and Mana are all EX rated.

Noble Phantasms
Armor of the Traveler EX Rank Support
One of the most powerful Defensive and Support Phantasms to ever exist, this suit of armor combines magic from the Age of Gods and technology from both far flung potential futures and distant pasts. It is the greatest work of the King of All Craftsmen, and it shows.
Any attack with a physical presence in the world has its power reduced by four ranks as its power is converted harmlessly into light. Additionally, the power of any elemental or physical attack is reduced by a further three ranks as they are stopped by azure ripples in space.
The armor has a final barrier, a combination of mighty technology and powerful magic. Crystalizing Mana and plasma around the wearer, creating a glowing field and runic inscriptions around them while active. In Fuyuki City or other Leyline areas, it allows Archer to ignore any attack of C rank or lower. An attack that pierces this defense has its power reduced by 3 ranks, but reduces the strength of this barrier by half a rank. In areas of normal prana distribution, the power of this defense is reduced
The armor proper is nearly indestructible; any attack of D rank after piercing his shields simply fails to affect him. It reduces the power of any attack that hits Archer by two ranks.
The armor also increases its wearers’ physical stats by one rank.
In addition to its numerous lesser effects, the armor may shift its appearance at a minimal prana cost, appearing to all natural senses to be its new form, but it's protections and weight do not change.

Barrier Shield A+ Rank Defensive
Based on the same defensive principles as his armor, the Barrier Shield is an extremely powerful defensive phantasm in of itself. Creating a plane of various crystalized forces in front of the shield proper. The shields reduce the power of any attack with a physical presence in the world by a total of seven ranks, any attack of D rank or less that pierces that simply fails to go further and reduces its power by two ranks. The shield itself has A Rank magic resistance which stacks with Archers own.
Unlike his armor, the Barrier shield may spread its barriers to encompass a much larger area rather than just the user.
The shield itself is very large and heavy, being nearly 60 cm in diameter, made of nearly indestructible material, it is able to witstand absolutely tremendous forces and can be used as a D rank weapon in of itself with its sharpened edges.

Impossible Knowledge B Rank
Archer bears knowledge from the depths of the Kalediscope, knowing things he should not know.

Eyes of the Demon C Rank Support
Archer's eyes pierce through all illusions regardless of their rank and allow him to perform D-rank Hypnosis or D-Rank Stat reduction on any that meet his gaze.

Arsenal of the Traveler D – A+ Rank Anti-Personnel
An arsenal of weapons collected from the depths of the Kalediscope and crafted by Archer’s own hands. Weapons from potential future and Ages of the Gods, weapons of advanced technology and powerful magic.
Some standouts in this arsenal include Derflinger, the Null Magic sword, Babbo, the Hammer and Flail, the Widowmaker, a rifle that fires slugs of metal at hypersonic speeds, Deadeye, the plasma sniper that fires concentrated blasts of superheated plasma, and Carsomyr, a powerful holy blade.

Arsenal Bow A+ Rank Anti Personnel
This massive recurve bow stands as tall as Archer himself and its center is far bulkier than normal. Any arrow fired from this bow flies at an astounding speed, few arrows can even survive the hypersonic transit. Anything fired by the bow also swerves around obstacles as it seeks its target. This bow is used by Archer to fire blades from his Arsenal of the Traveler at his foes like Arrows.

Interitus A Rank Anti-Unit
The single greatest Weapon Phantasm that Archer possesses. It is a sword designed by Archer, for Archer. It is an extremely strong and dense material mixed with a fraction of Starmetal, several times heavier than a normal sword, it is suffused with prana, forged in dragon fire, with liquid Prana runes worked into its length and was quenched in his own tainted blood.
The blade vibrates faster than the eye can see at a microscopic level, the sword tearing through anything it hits like a chainsaw. It hums and moans while drawn and swung, but when it cuts it screams like twisting metal and tortured souls.
The sword is unholy, tainted by his blood, and should any other attempt to wield the sword, it shall consume a portion of the wielders health, and it is strongest in his hands. The blade reeks of hatred, enhanced again and again to be the bane of various beings and powered by its’ tainted nature and its wielders instinctive hunger it has been suffused with both. That which would harm, that which is corrupt, these are the things the blade particularly hates and seeks to destroy and consume. Even as an Unholy blade, it is also powerful against other Unholy weapons as it consumes their power.
However, while the swords’ core is the concept of “Projection and Amplification of Energy”, the weapon is a crystallization of Archers’ travels through the Kalediscope, a weapon of “Beyond”, beyond destruction, beyond time and space, beyond the Earth itself. As such, it is a weapon capable of countering Ea with its own concepts.
Its greatest power is when invoked, flooded with Archers’ Od and the surrounding Mana, it converts it all into a destructive wave of energy.

Fateless A Rank Anti-Fate
Archer is utterly immune to the powers of Fate, Destiny, and Luck. No effect drawing on these can touch him unless he chooses otherwise. Increase the power of his attacks against those particularly bound by Fate by one rank.
Archer has no luck one way or the other, represented by his E-rank Luck stat. But he may choose to have whatever luck rating he desires when facing a Luck Check.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 12, 2014, 01:24:50 PM
Whether or not he is a Heroic Spirit shouldn't depend on his stats, and nor should whether he is put into a class container. I would say he would never be a Heroic Spirit (because he's not from the Throne) but would still be placed into a class container from the very beginning (because anyone summoned necessarily must be).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 12, 2014, 03:25:31 PM
Obviously he's never really a Heroic Spirit (He's alive even more so than Saber), but I guess a better way to phrase that part of the question is "When would you stop looking at him funny for being summoned?"

He'd always be assigned a Class Container, but I'm concerned about when his 'true' stats would start being 'squeezed' and limited by that container. Because by the 10th Swing, he's definitely overpowered for a Servant. True Heroic Spirits are limited by their Class Container when summoned, and initially, this guy isn't powerful enough when summoned to be limited (and I dislike the concept that people are 'empowered' when they are summoned). At what point do you think he would start to be limited by it?  :)
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 12, 2014, 03:35:39 PM
Well, in a sense it's always "funny" that he'd be summoned, because he's not a hero. I guess the main question is when Rin would go from facepalming over how shit a job she did of the summoning to thinking "OK, this isn't too bad", and given that it's Rin I suspect that would be pretty late on....

As for the container "limiting" them, it's not quite that simple. Heracles was able to have rank A everything, for example. Similarly, Archer EMIYA may be a little more powerful than you'd expect a future Shirou to be (he can stand up to a servant, which isn't something you'd expect from a normal magus), although that may be due to him becoming a CG.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 12, 2014, 04:09:01 PM
Oh, yeah, definitely "funny" that he got summoned. Sucks majorly for him, but it's explicitly a weird situation. (And over the course of getting those stats, he does earn the right to the throne, but I'm glossing over a lot of stuff for these questions). And yeah, that's a better way of putting it, when does Rin go from Facepalm to (Evil) Smiles?  :laugh:

And I know it's not simple for those exact reasons, that's kind of why I'm asking :laugh:
We're talking about a character who, at the end of this, can turn into a Dragon at will, has an armor that reduces all damage by 12 ranks and a shield that reduces it by 13 (this turns an A++++ attack into trivial damage) at no cost to him, has a sword that is essentially a slightly weaker unholy version of Excalibur, a bow that can fire arrows (and his other weapons) at hypersonic speeds, magic that makes most Caster's jaws drop, Item Creation of Ridiculous, A rank Magic Resistance, and A+ Battle Continuation. All on top of decent to solid base stats. The statline also glosses over that he can effectively create a Reality Marble as part of his Travelers Magic.

So... I feel rather uncomfortable bringing a character like this into the Holy Grail War even after establishing him over the course of the fic, simply because he seems overpowered. This is a guy at least comparable to Karna or Gilgamesh even without set-up/prep time. The only reason I can't say he definitively exceeds Gilgamesh is because Ea is raw bullshit (an attack power of 4000 compared to an A+++ being 200. Seriously, wtf).  :laugh:
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 12, 2014, 04:20:07 PM
Wouldn't he have already won the war before he gets to that point?

But, well, it's not really at-all clear what sort of restrictions the class containers put on the servants, for the simple reason that we never see any of them without those restrictions. It definitely does limit their access to weapons (Saber would have several other weapons in life) and the form that they take, but I'm not sure how much that would apply to someone not from the throne who is still alive.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 12, 2014, 04:29:12 PM
Actually, from the summary I've been hammering out of the fic, he gets very close to winning the war starting at the fourth swing. The problems are Gilgamesh, running out of luck, and Dark Sakura.

And yeah, I don't know either, that's why I'm trying to get other people's thoughts  8) I don't expect hard and fast rules so much as general feelings and thoughts on it :)
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 12, 2014, 05:05:40 PM
Actually, from the summary I've been hammering out of the fic, he gets very close to winning the war starting at the fourth swing. The problems are Gilgamesh, running out of luck, and Dark Sakura.

Well, isn't Dark Sakura easy enough to handle if you know about her past? You just find a way to deworm her and kill Zouken before it gets that far....

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And yeah, I don't know either, that's why I'm trying to get other people's thoughts  8) I don't expect hard and fast rules so much as general feelings and thoughts on it :)

Well, it's hard to say. To some extent, I think the answer is probably "he is restricted as much as you want him to be". It depends on the power of the master too, though. A weak master will limit their servant a lot more.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 12, 2014, 05:25:21 PM
Well, isn't Dark Sakura easy enough to handle if you know about her past? You just find a way to deworm her and kill Zouken before it gets that far....
Honestly? Yeah, but the Shadow blind-sides him one time, and he lacks a way to really de-worm her as well as kill Zouken, at least initially. Lucky or not, his knowledge isn't perfect and he gets caught with his pants down, especially since he's focusing on not dying by Berserker.

He also has the unusual problem for an Archer that the moment he loses his connection to his Master, for whatever reason (her death, or even something like Rule-breaker) he dissipates within moments.

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Well, it's hard to say. To some extent, I think the answer is probably "he is restricted as much as you want him to be". It depends on the power of the master too, though. A weak master will limit their servant a lot more.
Well, his master is consistently Rin, he's summoned into another iteration of the same War again and again by her (in place of EMIYA), so he's got a powerful master.

My initial thoughts so far are that he can't turn into a Dragon, because that's just kind of hax even compared to stuff like Excalibur. But other than that, I have trouble figuring out how he'd be limited.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 12, 2014, 05:31:55 PM
Honestly? Yeah, but the Shadow blind-sides him one time, and he lacks a way to really de-worm her as well as kill Zouken, at least initially. Lucky or not, his knowledge isn't perfect and he gets caught with his pants down, especially since he's focusing on not dying by Berserker.

Hmm, I see.

I'm hoping the solution to this problem isn't "kill Sakura"....

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He also has the unusual problem for an Archer that the moment he loses his connection to his Master, for whatever reason (her death, or even something like Rule-breaker) he dissipates within moments.

Why?

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Well, his master is consistently Rin, he's summoned into another iteration of the same War again and again by her (in place of EMIYA), so he's got a powerful master.

Yeah.

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My initial thoughts so far are that he can't turn into a Dragon, because that's just kind of hax even compared to stuff like Excalibur. But other than that, I have trouble figuring out how he'd be limited.

Well, "it's hax" isn't a reason to deny him an NP that he would logically have. Ea is "hax", after all. You need a more concrete justification why he wouldn't have it than that.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 12, 2014, 06:05:41 PM
Hmm, I see.

I'm hoping the solution to this problem isn't "kill Sakura"....
While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to. One of the drafts I currently have is of him ripping out Sakura's heart, worm and all before replacing it with one of his own that he rips from his own chest.

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He also has the unusual problem for an Archer that the moment he loses his connection to his Master, for whatever reason (her death, or even something like Rule-breaker) he dissipates within moments.

Why?
His only anchor to whatever reality he's in is his master or some other thing that he's mystically bonded to. While he doesn't need prana to support him since he's still fully alive and not on the precipice of death like Saber is (whatever her nebulous state she's really in), he does need something to hold him there. Without a connection to that reality, he starts fading away immediately, especially since he doesn't know how to hold himself in place until much later, when the point is moot. In theory, by the 8th Swing or so, he could stay in a reality indefinitely provided effort, but by that point he never gets the chance. His connection to Rin is severed for various reasons and he's too busy not dying to otherwise anchor himself again.

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Well, "it's hax" isn't a reason to deny him an NP that he would logically have. Ea is "hax", after all. You need a more concrete justification why he wouldn't have it than that.
Very, very true.

Part of it is because he's an Archer, at least in these situations. While he could qualify for any class (Lancer and Rider having the weakest justifications in his 'legend'), Caster, Archer, and Saber are the one's he's best suited for (in order from best to worst).

While turning into a Dragon is definitely a part of his 'legend', as well as slaying dragons (seriously, he ends up slaying somewhere around eight full grown dragons, something I hadn't intended when I first started this up, but a natural consequence of him being part of the stories he is), it doesn't really fit the Archer part of his 'legend', no more than his sword does, or his bow suiting the Saber class. Though that brings up the problem of which class would theoretically get that ability.

That and I'm uncomfortable with him having so many EX rated anythings as he does. While I could be misjudging ranks (entirely plausible), it still seems really awkward and weird to have 4 EX rated things.  :-[

Side Note: Ea is basically the definition of "teh haxxorz", it's just freaking ridiculous :laugh:
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 12, 2014, 06:15:19 PM
While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to.

I'm not entirely sure how murdering an innocent girl in cold blood is compatible with "saving everyone"....

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One of the drafts I currently have is of him ripping out Sakura's heart, worm and all before replacing it with one of his own that he rips from his own chest.

Well, firstly how would he make the heart connect, secondly how would he ensure she didn't reject the heart due to incompatibility (or due to it being part of a servant...) and thirdly what about him?

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His only anchor to whatever reality he's in is his master or some other thing that he's mystically bonded to. While he doesn't need prana to support him since he's still fully alive and not on the precipice of death like Saber is (whatever her nebulous state she's really in), he does need something to hold him there. Without a connection to that reality, he starts fading away immediately, especially since he doesn't know how to hold himself in place until much later, when the point is moot. In theory, by the 8th Swing or so, he could stay in a reality indefinitely provided effort, but by that point he never gets the chance. His connection to Rin is severed for various reasons and he's too busy not dying to otherwise anchor himself again.

Independent Action is a class skill, though, it's one he should have even if his own nature means he wouldn't possess it.

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Part of it is because he's an Archer, at least in these situations. While he could qualify for any class (Lancer and Rider having the weakest justifications in his 'legend'), Caster, Archer, and Saber are the one's he's best suited for (in order from best to worst).

While turning into a Dragon is definitely a part of his 'legend', as well as slaying dragons (seriously, he ends up slaying somewhere around eight full grown dragons, something I hadn't intended when I first started this up, but a natural consequence of him being part of the stories he is), it doesn't really fit the Archer part of his 'legend', no more than his sword does, or his bow suiting the Saber class. Though that brings up the problem of which class would theoretically get that ability.

Well, that's somewhat logical but, then, a Reality Marble is not exactly what you'd expect from an Archer-class servant either....

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That and I'm uncomfortable with him having so many EX rated anythings as he does. While I could be misjudging ranks (entirely plausible), it still seems really awkward and weird to have 4 EX rated things.  :-

Well, yeah, definitely. It's just a matter of giving reasonable justification for it.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 12, 2014, 06:59:50 PM
While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to.

I'm not entirely sure how murdering an innocent girl in cold blood is compatible with "saving everyone"....
There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

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One of the drafts I currently have is of him ripping out Sakura's heart, worm and all before replacing it with one of his own that he rips from his own chest.

Well, firstly how would he make the heart connect, secondly how would he ensure she didn't reject the heart due to incompatibility (or due to it being part of a servant...) and thirdly what about him?
In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

2). Future medicine specifically made for that purpose and that he has because something almost identical was done to him in more controlled circumstances. He has the materials on him because he (due to the ridiculous proliferation of his implants and the variety) still needs regular doses of it and had to learn how to make it. The Servant part I'm not actually sure applies since he's not a Heroic Spirit. I'm willing to listen to arguments either way on that.

3). He has multiple hearts, explicitly. A quirk of all the things he goes through ensures that he has a total of 3 organic hearts and one mechanical one distributed throughout his torso. This is also why he is able to ease the transfer of his heart to her.

He has a primary heart and a secondary heart that are always beating, but a tertiary heart that only starts beating in stressful situations as well as the mechanical heart as a further backup in case the above are destroyed. While giving up a heart weakens him (the secondary heart as its the only one similar enough to a normal persons to function as one), he's still able to keep functioning and would, eventually, regrow the heart due to his regeneration. Not on the timescale of the HGW, but it would regrow.

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Independent Action is a class skill, though, it's one he should have even if his own nature means he wouldn't possess it.
Really? I would've thought this would've replaced that skill. The effect is similar, but it suits him better. That and it would mean the only way to remove him from the War is to kill him since there's no reason a living person couldn't respire prana naturally and if he's dead... well... he's dead.

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Well, that's somewhat logical but, then, a Reality Marble is not exactly what you'd expect from an Archer-class servant either....
Touche', but this is a 'Servant' with magic, swords, armor, bows, an 'effective' Reality Marble (Creating a demiplane and dropping everyone into it mid combat), transforming into a dragon... there's gotta be a point where you say enough's enough. While part of this guy's trick is having the appropriate response for a problem, there's a point where the reader (and myself) go "You've got to be shitting me" in a negative fashion  :laugh:
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 12, 2014, 10:53:44 PM
While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to.

I'm not entirely sure how murdering an innocent girl in cold blood is compatible with "saving everyone"....
There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

So he'd murder an innocent girl in cold blood because she might go insane and murder everyone? Seems rather unheroic to me....

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In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

I don't think the worm is particularly large, although I'm not sure the size is that big an issue.

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2). Future medicine specifically made for that purpose and that he has because something almost identical was done to him in more controlled circumstances. He has the materials on him because he (due to the ridiculous proliferation of his implants and the variety) still needs regular doses of it and had to learn how to make it.

If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?

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The Servant part I'm not actually sure applies since he's not a Heroic Spirit. I'm willing to listen to arguments either way on that.

If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.

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3). He has multiple hearts, explicitly. A quirk of all the things he goes through ensures that he has a total of 3 organic hearts and one mechanical one distributed throughout his torso. This is also why he is able to ease the transfer of his heart to her.

He has a primary heart and a secondary heart that are always beating, but a tertiary heart that only starts beating in stressful situations as well as the mechanical heart as a further backup in case the above are destroyed. While giving up a heart weakens him (the secondary heart as its the only one similar enough to a normal persons to function as one), he's still able to keep functioning and would, eventually, regrow the heart due to his regeneration. Not on the timescale of the HGW, but it would regrow.

Ah, OK, I see.

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Really? I would've thought this would've replaced that skill. The effect is similar, but it suits him better. That and it would mean the only way to remove him from the War is to kill him since there's no reason a living person couldn't respire prana naturally and if he's dead... well... he's dead.

Well, Independant Action is a different thing. It means the servant can survive for longer without an anchor. It's part of the class container for an Archer-class servant, so it's something he should have. It doesn't mean he'd live forever, though, it just means being without a master is not instantly fatal.

Also, if he dies when he is killed as a servant, then how does he survive the first few wars? Rin would never die or lose her contract before he did. And, I'm not sure how exactly that helps him, anyway. Getting physically killed as a servant and getting your existence crushed by the world has the exact same effect.

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quote]Well, that's somewhat logical but, then, a Reality Marble is not exactly what you'd expect from an Archer-class servant either....
Touche', but this is a 'Servant' with magic, swords, armor, bows, an 'effective' Reality Marble (Creating a demiplane and dropping everyone into it mid combat), transforming into a dragon... there's gotta be a point where you say enough's enough. While part of this guy's trick is having the appropriate response for a problem, there's a point where the reader (and myself) go "You've got to be shitting me" in a negative fashion  :laugh:
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Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 13, 2014, 12:25:13 AM
There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

So he'd murder an innocent girl in cold blood because she might go insane and murder everyone? Seems rather unheroic to me....
This is a misunderstanding, when she's already gone insane and trying to murder people, not before. He'd be willing to murder her if she was starting to go insane, but this is explicitly not heroic, I agree. This is a horrible thing, but it's a part of the character. He almost certainly couldn't be summoned by a non-tainted grail.

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In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

I don't think the worm is particularly large, although I'm not sure the size is that big an issue.
Me either! Just making note. It'd be uncomfortable for her then just due to size.

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2). Future medicine specifically made for that purpose and that he has because something almost identical was done to him in more controlled circumstances. He has the materials on him because he (due to the ridiculous proliferation of his implants and the variety) still needs regular doses of it and had to learn how to make it.

If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?
He's a unique case. She'll need a lot of it in the first place, but not over long term.

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The Servant part I'm not actually sure applies since he's not a Heroic Spirit. I'm willing to listen to arguments either way on that.

If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.
Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

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Really? I would've thought this would've replaced that skill. The effect is similar, but it suits him better. That and it would mean the only way to remove him from the War is to kill him since there's no reason a living person couldn't respire prana naturally and if he's dead... well... he's dead.

Well, Independant Action is a different thing. It means the servant can survive for longer without an anchor. It's part of the class container for an Archer-class servant, so it's something he should have. It doesn't mean he'd live forever, though, it just means being without a master is not instantly fatal.

Also, if he dies when he is killed as a servant, then how does he survive the first few wars? Rin would never die or lose her contract before he did. And, I'm not sure how exactly that helps him, anyway. Getting physically killed as a servant and getting your existence crushed by the world has the exact same effect.
Eaugh, that's... problematic...

... hrm... unless the Independant Action starts off really low... which would make sense.... hm...

Anyways, in the first few Wars, she does die before him. He has no skills or power or attributes other than his luck which saves him, but not her. That and Rulebreaker catches him off guard, he forgets that Medea has it between Wars since he never had to deal with it personally.

And he's a living being enough (and his summoning is enough of the Second Magic that) Gaia doesn't crush his existence so much as shunt him out (and thus, back into the Kaleidiscope).

At least that's the concept, because otherwise there's no resolution for him in the HGW other than death or victory, and since death for him would be permanent, this is just kinda sorta maye a LOT of a bad thing.

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Touche', but this is a 'Servant' with magic, swords, armor, bows, an 'effective' Reality Marble (Creating a demiplane and dropping everyone into it mid combat), transforming into a dragon... there's gotta be a point where you say enough's enough. While part of this guy's trick is having the appropriate response for a problem, there's a point where the reader (and myself) go "You've got to be shitting me" in a negative fashion  :laugh:

Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....
That's going to be justified by a relatively large fic. He goes through a significant amount of crap for most of the things he gains, with a few exceptions.

The problem is that I don't want to create an overpowered character if I can help it, which is why I'm trying to talk to people about it :)
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 13, 2014, 01:05:43 AM
There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

So he'd murder an innocent girl in cold blood because she might go insane and murder everyone? Seems rather unheroic to me....
This is a misunderstanding, when she's already gone insane and trying to murder people, not before. He'd be willing to murder her if she was starting to go insane, but this is explicitly not heroic, I agree. This is a horrible thing, but it's a part of the character. He almost certainly couldn't be summoned by a non-tainted grail.

I see, so he's a bit of an asshole, then?

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In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

I don't think the worm is particularly large, although I'm not sure the size is that big an issue.
Me either! Just making note. It'd be uncomfortable for her then just due to size.

Well, I'm not sure how well the human body can cope with such things, but I'm pretty sure your heart can't just be "uncomfortable". If your heart is causing you pain or discomfort, it is probably not safe....

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If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?
He's a unique case. She'll need a lot of it in the first place, but not over long term.

Ah, OK, I see.

It could be possible to get her an alternate heart later, though, or find a healer who could provide one.

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If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.
Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Not sure. It could be a temporary thing, especially if Rin still has her pendant (i.e. she doesn't need to use it to cure Shirou). Indeed, if Rin has the pendant she may well be able to remove or destroy the worm herself....

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Eaugh, that's... problematic...

... hrm... unless the Independant Action starts off really low... which would make sense.... hm...

Anyways, in the first few Wars, she does die before him. He has no skills or power or attributes other than his luck which saves him, but not her. That and Rulebreaker catches him off guard, he forgets that Medea has it between Wars since he never had to deal with it personally.

And he's a living being enough (and his summoning is enough of the Second Magic that) Gaia doesn't crush his existence so much as shunt him out (and thus, back into the Kaleidiscope).

At least that's the concept, because otherwise there's no resolution for him in the HGW other than death or victory, and since death for him would be permanent, this is just kinda sorta maye a LOT of a bad thing.

Honestly, I think the whole "death" mechanic here is somewhat contrived as it stands. Having him avoid death in several wars by sheer luck is going to come across looking weird, and I see no logical reason why him getting crushed by the world would have a different effect to him just dying.

As a servant, you don't have a normal body. You are basically just a soul in a container. To be summoned and controlled as a servant that has to be the case. It is possible for the soul to survive the war and return to a body after (like with Saber), but I don't think you could do what you're going for here and still have the guy logically treated as a servant.

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Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....
That's going to be justified by a relatively large fic. He goes through a significant amount of crap for most of the things he gains, with a few exceptions.

The problem is that I don't want to create an overpowered character if I can help it, which is why I'm trying to talk to people about it :)

My issue here is more how you justify him not having some of these abilities. Although, I'm not sure why exactly he's picking so many up when he doesn't need them....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 13, 2014, 03:41:52 AM
I see, so he's a bit of an asshole, then?
Pretty much, yeah. Tries to be a nice guy, usually very pleasant, tries to do the best by everyone... but when the shit hits the fan, he can be kind of a dick. He'd very much pull a Kiritsugu and sacrifice one to save ten.  Remorse doesn't change the fact that yeah, he would.

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Well, I'm not sure how well the human body can cope with such things, but I'm pretty sure your heart can't just be "uncomfortable". If your heart is causing you pain or discomfort, it is probably not safe....
Generally no, but I've had to deal with hear trouble and did research on it because of that. The transfered heart (due to the size difference between the two of them) would press more against her left lung than the original did. While this would cause discomfort, it would not be lethal and the body would adapt. Heavy exertion wouldn't be a good idea until she had, and were it a normal heart, too much cardio even afterwards might risk bruising the heart (not fatal but painful and risky) but... well, it's not a normal heart. However, the size difference isn't that big in the first place. It's large enough to have an effect, but not to be ridiculous.

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If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?
He's a unique case. She'll need a lot of it in the first place, but not over long term.

Ah, OK, I see.

It could be possible to get her an alternate heart later, though, or find a healer who could provide one.
Certainly, though this would probably weaken her after she'd adjusted. Archer OC has a dragon aspect to him almost identical to Saber Arturia, and as such, Sakura would literally be getting the heart of a dragon. Archer OC wouldn't be aware of this, but I like the concept for future use.

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If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.
Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Not sure. It could be a temporary thing, especially if Rin still has her pendant (i.e. she doesn't need to use it to cure Shirou). Indeed, if Rin has the pendant she may well be able to remove or destroy the worm herself....
True. Hrm.

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Eaugh, that's... problematic...

... hrm... unless the Independant Action starts off really low... which would make sense.... hm...

Anyways, in the first few Wars, she does die before him. He has no skills or power or attributes other than his luck which saves him, but not her. That and Rulebreaker catches him off guard, he forgets that Medea has it between Wars since he never had to deal with it personally.

And he's a living being enough (and his summoning is enough of the Second Magic that) Gaia doesn't crush his existence so much as shunt him out (and thus, back into the Kaleidiscope).

At least that's the concept, because otherwise there's no resolution for him in the HGW other than death or victory, and since death for him would be permanent, this is just kinda sorta maye a LOT of a bad thing.

Honestly, I think the whole "death" mechanic here is somewhat contrived as it stands. Having him avoid death in several wars by sheer luck is going to come across looking weird, and I see no logical reason why him getting crushed by the world would have a different effect to him just dying.

As a servant, you don't have a normal body. You are basically just a soul in a container. To be summoned and controlled as a servant that has to be the case. It is possible for the soul to survive the war and return to a body after (like with Saber), but I don't think you could do what you're going for here and still have the guy logically treated as a servant.
In the current draft (which could change obviously) it's only full on luck based survival in the very first few, afterwards its mostly Rin dying or him getting caught by something that severs their connection. Usually her dying because he's a shit Servant. He almost dies multiple times and is healed in the next world he travels to, usually desperately.

Admittedly, it is a bit contrived, but I really don't want to remove the 'drama' of him dying, because hey! He'll be back to try again next time! It really hurts the drama when that's possible, especially in the most dramatically lethal world. If he can die without any real consequences... it really removes a lot of the drama, at least in my ability to write it.

But as for the servant thing... why? If that was the case, and Saber was just a soul summoned by the Grail like the others, why couldn't she assume astral form?

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Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....
That's going to be justified by a relatively large fic. He goes through a significant amount of crap for most of the things he gains, with a few exceptions.

The problem is that I don't want to create an overpowered character if I can help it, which is why I'm trying to talk to people about it :)

My issue here is more how you justify him not having some of these abilities. Although, I'm not sure why exactly he's picking so many up when he doesn't need them....
Sorry >_<

Though he picks up so many abilities because he does need them, but they're far more often tailored to the realm which he's in at the time. The ability to alter Fate and Destiny and being immune to it isn't worth much in F/SN, but in Kingdoms of Amalur it's the defining trait of the protagonist. A lot of the abilities are like that.

And I don't think I've said so yet, but I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me, it's really nice to have someone intelligent to bounce the ideas off of  :)
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 14, 2014, 02:10:30 AM
I see, so he's a bit of an asshole, then?
Pretty much, yeah. Tries to be a nice guy, usually very pleasant, tries to do the best by everyone... but when the shit hits the fan, he can be kind of a dick. He'd very much pull a Kiritsugu and sacrifice one to save ten.  Remorse doesn't change the fact that yeah, he would.

Fair enough. As long as it doesn't actually happen I guess it's not really an issue....

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Generally no, but I've had to deal with hear trouble and did research on it because of that. The transfered heart (due to the size difference between the two of them) would press more against her left lung than the original did. While this would cause discomfort, it would not be lethal and the body would adapt. Heavy exertion wouldn't be a good idea until she had, and were it a normal heart, too much cardio even afterwards might risk bruising the heart (not fatal but painful and risky) but... well, it's not a normal heart. However, the size difference isn't that big in the first place. It's large enough to have an effect, but not to be ridiculous.

Ah, OK.

Well, a bit of discomfort is nothing compared with what Zouken is putting her through anyway....

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Certainly, though this would probably weaken her after she'd adjusted. Archer OC has a dragon aspect to him almost identical to Saber Arturia, and as such, Sakura would literally be getting the heart of a dragon. Archer OC wouldn't be aware of this, but I like the concept for future use.

Ah, I see.

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Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Well, I guess it depends. Shirou survives with Archer's arm attached to him, after all. And, the fact that he's even more of a normal human than Archer might help. He might not have quite the same spiritual presence.

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In the current draft (which could change obviously) it's only full on luck based survival in the very first few, afterwards its mostly Rin dying or him getting caught by something that severs their connection. Usually her dying because he's a shit Servant. He almost dies multiple times and is healed in the next world he travels to, usually desperately.

Admittedly, it is a bit contrived, but I really don't want to remove the 'drama' of him dying, because hey! He'll be back to try again next time! It really hurts the drama when that's possible, especially in the most dramatically lethal world. If he can die without any real consequences... it really removes a lot of the drama, at least in my ability to write it.

The problem is that the way you're going about it is going to look horribly contrived. There is no reason Rin should die over a completely powerless servant when the servant is the logical first target. Especially since Rin is probably a match for most masters and can hold off a servant for a bit. It happening once makes sense, it happening multiple times seems just bizarre.

It also means that his method of surviving involves a rather-popular canon character dying in his place, which is not exactly something I'd expect most readers to be rooting for....

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But as for the servant thing... why? If that was the case, and Saber was just a soul summoned by the Grail like the others, why couldn't she assume astral form?

Well, Saber is still counted as "alive" but, at the same time, she is still clearly a spirit. She requires prana to survive and she just fades into nothingness when she is defeated. I also find it unlikely that killing Saber in the Grail War would prevent her returning to her body.

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Sorry >_<

Though he picks up so many abilities because he does need them, but they're far more often tailored to the realm which he's in at the time. The ability to alter Fate and Destiny and being immune to it isn't worth much in F/SN, but in Kingdoms of Amalur it's the defining trait of the protagonist. A lot of the abilities are like that.

Ah, OK.

Well, one issue I can see here is that a massive cross-over fic like this with an OC protagonist is going to require knowledge of a lot of different works to be readable.

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And I don't think I've said so yet, but I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me, it's really nice to have someone intelligent to bounce the ideas off of  :)

It's no problem, I'm happy to help, and you did come over to my forum to discuss it, so helping you out is the least I can do.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 14, 2014, 03:32:23 AM
Fair enough. As long as it doesn't actually happen I guess it's not really an issue....
Not in any of the Fate universes, but it does come up in others.

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Generally no, but I've had to deal with hear trouble and did research on it because of that. The transfered heart (due to the size difference between the two of them) would press more against her left lung than the original did. While this would cause discomfort, it would not be lethal and the body would adapt. Heavy exertion wouldn't be a good idea until she had, and were it a normal heart, too much cardio even afterwards might risk bruising the heart (not fatal but painful and risky) but... well, it's not a normal heart. However, the size difference isn't that big in the first place. It's large enough to have an effect, but not to be ridiculous.

Ah, OK.

Well, a bit of discomfort is nothing compared with what Zouken is putting her through anyway....
Pretty much my thoughts.

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Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Well, I guess it depends. Shirou survives with Archer's arm attached to him, after all. And, the fact that he's even more of a normal human than Archer might help. He might not have quite the same spiritual presence.
That was my original thought, but there is the problem that this guy is inherently tainted. He was tainted deliberately in order to increase his resistance to further tainting (specifically Dragon Age, he gets drawn into the Gray Wardens) which actually makes him immune to the Blackening that the Shadow performs (though it still kicks him out of existence), but this brings up the problem of how Sakura's body would handle that. Even if there's no real 'spiritual' component to worry about or even any of his blood still in the heart, this is magic we're talking about here. That and yay vampire.

I haven't gotten through Heavens Feel route yet personally so I'm not sure how that would affect her.

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The problem is that the way you're going about it is going to look horribly contrived. There is no reason Rin should die over a completely powerless servant when the servant is the logical first target. Especially since Rin is probably a match for most masters and can hold off a servant for a bit. It happening once makes sense, it happening multiple times seems just bizarre.
The first time is purely him being 'Lucky' and her not, Gilgamesh rains death down on a large group (most of the other Servants and masters) at once, and while Archer OC and Rin both go off to the side as 'Masters' to stay out of the fight, Gilgamesh doesn't accept this since Archer OC is the one who essentially started the fight. Rin just happens to get hit before Archer OC and he has essentially no prana or Independent Action at that point.

The second time, when Berserker attacks, Rin actually tries to protect Archer OC since he has no combat ability whatsoever and Saber isn't able to hold off Berserker on her own. At this point, while Archer OC isn't a coward, he's not Shirou either and panics, getting and staying out of the way, and Rin gets bissected. Rin reasons that since Archer has no combat ability and she's the one who summoned him, he's her responsibility (he's explained his situation to her).

The third time, he's barely competent and equipped enough to fight and almost gets killed when Berserker nearly bisects him. The only reason he isn't bisected and very very dead is because Berserker had to hit through a shield and his armor and Rin uses a Command Seal to make him escape, but it kicks him out of existence and back into the kalediscope, removing him from that world. That and in the next world his companions use up all of their healing magic to save him.

The fourth time they're attacked by Berserker and Illya early on as per canon, but when Shirou leaps in front of the attack meant for Saber (since even between the two of them, they can't handle Berserker for obvious reasons), but for reasons that Archer OC doesn't figure out, Illya doesn't have Berserker stop after basically bisecting Shirou. Archer OC has Rin make a contract with Saber on the spot, and Saber ends up using Excalibur, Archer OC stops draining Rin's prana to avoid hurting her... but finds himself fading almost immediately since he has so little prana... but decides to go with it since he's not a viable Servant and it's not killing him.
(This one was revised from the original based on the whole Independant Action thing)

The fifth time, after a solid showing, he gets hit by Rule Breaker and avoids letting Caster take him as a Servant, using his anti-magic blade to take her down before he dissapates. Rin being unable to make a new contract with him before he fades out.
(Again somewhat revised from the original, this time he has the time to actually take out Caster rather than just immediately fading out).

The sixth time, after a decent showing (and getting Rider/Sakura involved as an alliance of Rin, Shirou and Sakura) he gets opened up by Berserker again and Rin tries to force him to turn into Astral form using a Command Seal to save him. since he hadn't mentioned what he was to her this time (a mistake), and ends up getting forced out of existence again instead.

The seventh time, after a very solid showing it ends up with a fight of Archer OC and Berserker vs Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh pulls out Ea and between Berserker and Archer OC's armor/shield/magic of ridiculousness they survive a mid-power blast from it, the surprise of Gilgamesh giving Archer OC enough of an opening to shoot Gilgamesh in the head with a technomagic gun... and then realize that Rin and Shirou and Sakura were all behind him and Berserker when Gilgamesh used Ea... Archer's newly E-rank Luck making a showing. He survived without his master long enough for the combat and uses up the healing potions he has to try and save the others, starting with Rin and then moving to Shirou and then to Sakura, but he fades out before he can since his link with Rin was broken.
(Again, slightly revised)

The eighth time, between himself and the others, they take out Berserker, Caster, Assassin, and Lancer, but before Gilgamesh shows up, the Shadow makes an appearance and drains Archer OC of prana and tries to blacken him... but ends up just making him dissipate. Archer OC never realizes that Sakura was the source of the Shadow.

The ninth time is much like the Eighth, but Saber is blackened first and Archer OC ends up having to hold her off while Shirou and Rin try to save Sakura. But Saber is basically the worst possible opponent for Archer OC and while he wins, he ends up using the last of his Prana to do so and Rin was killed by Psycho-Sakura so Archer OC fades out.

The tenth time, Archer OC ends up essentially winning the war, this being the time that he actually saves Sakura since he knows to do so, the other Servants being non-issues at this point.

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But as for the servant thing... why? If that was the case, and Saber was just a soul summoned by the Grail like the others, why couldn't she assume astral form?

Well, Saber is still counted as "alive" but, at the same time, she is still clearly a spirit. She requires prana to survive and she just fades into nothingness when she is defeated. I also find it unlikely that killing Saber in the Grail War would prevent her returning to her body.
True.

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Sorry >_<

Though he picks up so many abilities because he does need them, but they're far more often tailored to the realm which he's in at the time. The ability to alter Fate and Destiny and being immune to it isn't worth much in F/SN, but in Kingdoms of Amalur it's the defining trait of the protagonist. A lot of the abilities are like that.

Ah, OK.

Well, one issue I can see here is that a massive cross-over fic like this with an OC protagonist is going to require knowledge of a lot of different works to be readable.
Oh yeah, I've been hashing out how best to make it easier on readers who are new to works to ease them into it. I've got a couple ideas, most of them involve people that he expects to look one way looking somewhat different so he does have to describe them in his head, as well as the OC himself being clueless as to where he is and learning with the readers.

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It's no problem, I'm happy to help, and you did come over to my forum to discuss it, so helping you out is the least I can do.
Still, I appreciate it ^_^
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 15, 2014, 02:44:24 AM
Hmm, OK, I guess the way it goes doesn't seem utterly ridiculous, although I'm not sure Dark Sakura would kill Rin so much as swallow her, based on the last Bad End....

As for the heart, if you cut Sakura's heart out and removed all of Zouken's worms, I don't think Angra Mainyu would be able to get a hold of her. If it already had a connection, though, it would retain that. I don't think her heart would make much difference at that point, though, once AM gets a connection it's entirely down to her mental strength to resist him.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 15, 2014, 04:48:24 AM
Hmm, OK, I guess the way it goes doesn't seem utterly ridiculous, although I'm not sure Dark Sakura would kill Rin so much as swallow her, based on the last Bad End....
Oh? Okay. *makes note*

But yay! Sort of vaguely reasonableness! Is there anything else that jumps out at you as weird or ridiculous (though not utterly ridiculous)?

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As for the heart, if you cut Sakura's heart out and removed all of Zouken's worms, I don't think Angra Mainyu would be able to get a hold of her. If it already had a connection, though, it would retain that. I don't think her heart would make much difference at that point, though, once AM gets a connection it's entirely down to her mental strength to resist him.
The last time it's not much of an issue. By that point, since Archer OC knows the source of the problem, he can fix it. The only reason he didn't do that the Ninth or Eighth time is because he doesn't know the source of the Shadow having completely forgotten it's connection to Sakura, since it's been over a decade since he played the game by that point. He's already had to deal with his own (if lesser) taint for a long time and knows tricks to teach her, and if everything else fails, he has Holy (capital H in fact) items which can lock down on that taint for her, not purge it, but keep it from affecting her mind (provided she doesn't draw on it).

... actually, I think I'll go with him giving up one of his few items that he uses for that exact reason to her. Tapping more into his own taint to make up for the fact that he's giving up a portion of his power in the form of his heart.

The main reason he removes the heart has less to do with keeping AM from affecting her so much as to kill Zouken really, really dead.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 20, 2014, 12:25:32 AM
Hmm, OK, I guess the way it goes doesn't seem utterly ridiculous, although I'm not sure Dark Sakura would kill Rin so much as swallow her, based on the last Bad End....
Oh? Okay. *makes note*

But yay! Sort of vaguely reasonableness! Is there anything else that jumps out at you as weird or ridiculous (though not utterly ridiculous)?

Well, it still seems somewhat contrived in general, but I think that's unavoidable.

One thing that does stick out a little, though, is the bit with Sakura allying with Rin and Shirou. Whilst Sakura would not be willing to fight against Shirou, I'm not sure if she could really form a proper alliance with them whilst Zouken is alive. Zouken would ultimately force her to oppose them in the end, and the way he did it could endanger them.

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The last time it's not much of an issue. By that point, since Archer OC knows the source of the problem, he can fix it. The only reason he didn't do that the Ninth or Eighth time is because he doesn't know the source of the Shadow having completely forgotten it's connection to Sakura, since it's been over a decade since he played the game by that point. He's already had to deal with his own (if lesser) taint for a long time and knows tricks to teach her, and if everything else fails, he has Holy (capital H in fact) items which can lock down on that taint for her, not purge it, but keep it from affecting her mind (provided she doesn't draw on it).

Ah, OK.

Well, Sakura is generally rather strong-willed, so it's difficult for AM to affect her anyway. I suspect it would be considerably harder if she knew of the shadow at an earlier time, since she doesn't want to hurt people.

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... actually, I think I'll go with him giving up one of his few items that he uses for that exact reason to her. Tapping more into his own taint to make up for the fact that he's giving up a portion of his power in the form of his heart.

Ah, OK.

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The main reason he removes the heart has less to do with keeping AM from affecting her so much as to kill Zouken really, really dead.

Yeah, makes sense.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 20, 2014, 03:37:26 AM
Well, it still seems somewhat contrived in general, but I think that's unavoidable.

One thing that does stick out a little, though, is the bit with Sakura allying with Rin and Shirou. Whilst Sakura would not be willing to fight against Shirou, I'm not sure if she could really form a proper alliance with them whilst Zouken is alive. Zouken would ultimately force her to oppose them in the end, and the way he did it could endanger them.
Hrm, even if the Servant was essentially up in his face about getting her into an alliance with them and obviously determined to protect her? Again, I haven't gotten through Heavens Feel so I don't have a total understanding of Zouken's intentions and such.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on February 21, 2014, 12:39:39 PM
Well, it's not that Zouken wouldn't allow it, it's that he'd expect her to still go all-out to win the war. Which means that he'd expect her to backstab Shirou when it was convenient to do so. In HF, Shirou is already out of the war by that time, so it's not an issue (and Sakura expected she would probably have to fight Rin eventually), whereas here he's not. Plus, in HF Zouken is obviously the enemy for Shirou and Rin, so Sakura expects them to try to take him on (and, thus, bypass this issue), whereas here he's not even mentioned as far as I can tell.

It's not impossible for it to happen, but the danger for Sakura is that she would be forced into backstabbing Shirou, so she would probably avoid any kind of formal alliance. She would, however, probably assist him if he was in danger.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Andoriol on February 21, 2014, 03:39:29 PM
He's not mentioned mostly because I had no clue what he would do or how he would feel about these things.

Hrm.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 02:23:29 AM
Erm, I have a small question that's been nagging me for a while: if Rin died at some point during the Grail War (say, due to Kotomine stabbing), how would that affect, say, Sakura? How would she react to it? How about Shirou?

Just wondering about characterization, that's all.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 02:31:52 AM
Well, I would expect Shirou to be extremely upset by it, just because he hates people getting hurt.

As for Sakura, it's more complicated. A small part of her would be happy that Rin was dead, but I think that she would mostly be extremely upset at losing her sister. I suspect there wouldn't be much of an outward reaction, though, especially not with Zouken still around, and I doubt it would affect her personality much (she's long ago given up on any hope that Rin will ever come to save her, and she's already sad in any case).
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 02:39:07 AM
And what if Zouken were out of the equation (as if she were already rescued from him or such)? Would that change anything?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 02:47:04 AM
Um, is shinji still around?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 02:56:33 AM
Umm...honestly, hadn't considered him. I'd like to know how it'd go for either scenario.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 02:57:04 AM
And what if Zouken were out of the equation (as if she were already rescued from him or such)? Would that change anything?

Well, it depends somewhat on how she'd been rescued, and whether she'd had any kind of reconciliation with Rin. Also, it depends what exactly you're talking about when you say "change". Her feelings would probably not change an awful lot, but her actions might.

Umm...honestly, hadn't considered him. I'd like to know how it'd go for either scenario.

Well, Shinji gives her another sibling, so that might help remove some of the pain. Again, it depends on the situation.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 03:01:07 AM
It also depend on if he continues to rape her.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 03:05:02 AM
It also depend on if he continues to rape her.

It does, although I suspect that Zouken dying is likely to involve some mechanism that also stops the rape, at least in the long term.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 05:07:09 AM
OK, back to this topic, to be honest, I had something like Fate in mind, where Shinji's, well, dead. As for reconciliation...well, I guess there'd be a bit of that? They'd still be in the middle of the war, I suppose...

And, in what would it depend on how she'd been rescued? I'd assume part of that is referring to Rider?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 05:15:10 AM
Was rin involved in the rescue? Did she and sakura make up? If so, how uch, on a scale of 1-10?
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: KAIZA on October 02, 2014, 05:20:04 AM
Ah, OK.

Yeah, in this case, yes, she was involved. As for making up...I'd say, about 6-7? I mean, for what I had in mind, they'd still be in the middle of the war, but still could have their little moment and work from there.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: SINIB on October 02, 2014, 05:25:06 AM
I think she'd be upset, yeah.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 02, 2014, 01:47:58 PM
OK, back to this topic, to be honest, I had something like Fate in mind, where Shinji's, well, dead. As for reconciliation...well, I guess there'd be a bit of that? They'd still be in the middle of the war, I suppose...

Well, yes, but they can still show that they care for each other, particularly with Zouken out of the way.

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And, in what would it depend on how she'd been rescued? I'd assume part of that is referring to Rider?

I was referring more to Rin, actually. If she was involved in the rescue, then Sakura knows she cares, and is also more likely to talk to her.

Ah, OK.

Yeah, in this case, yes, she was involved. As for making up...I'd say, about 6-7? I mean, for what I had in mind, they'd still be in the middle of the war, but still could have their little moment and work from there.

In that case, I think Sakura would be pretty devastated. She's just got her sister back, and was just getting to know her again, and she's been taken away. How she reacts depends a lot on her circumstances, though, and how exactly Rin died. I'd expect her to probably end up fighting against whoever had killed Rin (at least if Rider is still around), but I wouldn't expect her to turn Dark or anything like that.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 26, 2014, 03:57:41 PM
Hmm, is it true that EMIYA can be summoned as a Berserker? If so, does anyone know how that came about? I don't recall anything about him going insane.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: KAIZA on October 27, 2014, 02:55:31 AM
Hmm, is it true that EMIYA can be summoned as a Berserker? If so, does anyone know how that came about? I don't recall anything about him going insane.
As far as I know, the "gone insane at some point in life" is a requirement for the Berserker class, and as far as we know, EMIYA never did (unless you go for some complicated interpretation of his story, or something; I dunno), so I'd say...nope.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 27, 2014, 02:58:13 AM
Hmm, is it true that EMIYA can be summoned as a Berserker? If so, does anyone know how that came about? I don't recall anything about him going insane.
As far as I know, the "gone insane at some point in life" is a requirement for the Berserker class, and as far as we know, EMIYA never did (unless you go for some complicated interpretation of his story, or something; I dunno), so I'd say...nope.

Well, yeah, that's what I thought, but I recall hearing of a list that had Berserker as one of his possible classes. I was wondering if one of the Archer fans might know....
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Elf on October 27, 2014, 03:02:47 AM
Hmm, is it true that EMIYA can be summoned as a Berserker? If so, does anyone know how that came about? I don't recall anything about him going insane.

I have no idea where that could have came from.

Lancer qualifies as a Berserker and maybe Caster.

The only other class that EMIYA could possibly classify as would be Caster, but he'd be severely nerfed.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 27, 2014, 03:16:55 AM
Ah, OK, thanks.
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on October 27, 2014, 03:26:02 AM
Hmm, OK, I just found where it came from. Apparently, it's from Fate Ace/Royal, which is some card game that was released in a TM magazine. All I can find about it are articles on the TM wiki, though, and some stuff from BL that doesn't really explain it.

Ah, here we go:

https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/C_Chat/M.1412693896.A.077.html (https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/C_Chat/M.1412693896.A.077.html)

"衛宮士郎 (the second bit is "Shirou", I'm not sure what the first bit is, but I think the name is one used for Archer)  : Archer / Caster / Berserker / Assassin"
Title: Re: Questions thread
Post by: YOLF on October 27, 2014, 03:47:15 AM
The card game just seems to be a cheap microtransaction ploy, so I wouldn't take it as indicative of canon. Especially not when some of the info on that page already contradicts canon.