Dark Side of the Moon
Type Moon => Fanfiction => Topic started by: Xamusel on July 26, 2013, 07:08:51 PM
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Something I'm migrating from Beast's Lair, because I thought the discussions needed to be brought here for good reason, considering that it's something that needs to be brought here.
Here's an example of something that can be said here, as it's my opinion, not something I consider factual in everything:
Y'know what? I hate it when people seem to think that they don't have any need for improvement in writing. There's no such thing as "perfect" in this life.
Also, I'm partially guilty of this myself, but I hate it when a fanfic follows an anime word for word. Reason why I am partially guilty of it is because I'm trying to put in a framework for the different changes that are being made in my particular story, but in order for me to do that, I need to have some semblance of the original work before I write in the changes.
I hope that explains what I'd like to see in this thread.
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Author's notes in the body of the story. Too much of a flow-breaker for me. I prefer them to be in posts following the main story post, so that those who want the information can get it, while those who just want to get on with the story can ignore them entirely.
inb4 hypocrisy accusations.
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I know what you mean. I find that all that much annoying as well.
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OK, well, personally, what annoys me is when people try to write fanfics without actually understanding the source material, and make no effort to rectify this. I've seen some really terrible characterisation and plot holes come from that before.
Also, I don't like it when people kill off characters for no reason, or just to be "edgy", particularly if it's someone I like (which mainly means Sakura...). I understand character death is sometimes needed in a story, but just doing it to make the ending look a little less perfect or because you just don't like them is really annoying. Particularly if it's then glossed-over and everyone but that character is perfectly happy.
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Remind me to find a way not to make a mess of that to begin with.
I mean, a story that I'm writing is set in a timeline which is famous for killing off characters brutally, aka because of "Kill 'em All" Tomino (the guy who created the Gundam franchise). I have no intention of killing off the majority of the cast that way, at least unless it involves the Newtype ideology that's famous in said timeline, which includes how people are supposed to evolve.
I don't want to be an idiot involving the use of character death, but this is a story set in a Gundam timeline known for having a depression-induced creator, and it is a crossover with the Nasuverse. I just don't know what all I am supposed to do to begin with.
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Well, like I said, killing off characters when it makes sense is OK, although it is likely to turn off at least some of the readers (I, for example, would be unlikely to continue reading a fic in which Sakura was killed-off). It's just doing so gratuitously or, worse, because you have an irrational hatred for the character (someone like Zouken I fully understand wanting to kill off, but Sakura I don't) that I can't stand.
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I understand what you mean.
Of course, Zouken is not gonna live long in said story, as compared to the start and end of the story (for example, the story is going to last at least 40 years in-universe, from Ilya's birth to the end of a major war in the setting).
Then again, I don't want to ignore any of the characters I write about, which I know can annoy people if I do so.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
And, yeah, people ignoring characters is another thing that gets at me, particularly important characters.
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I figured that would be another annoyance.
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In the case of crossovers the only thing that irks me is the criticism from people who don't actually know both source materials and think that their opinions are invaluable and perfectly valid.
as for ignoring or killing characters I'm okay with both depending on a story's context and premise
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Not knowing both source materials doesn't mean you can't criticise what you do know, especially when the story is posted on a site that caters to one of the fandoms. Further, if you're expecting people to read it without knowledge of both series, you should expect them to comment on it.
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There you've missed the words I used, I'm fine with input when people acknowledge their ignorance about one or the other subject , it's when people assert facts or complaints like they are unassailable or more important than the work as such. This is one reason why the cross overs I did on beasts lair were discontinued and featured here since you guys are more sensible
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I find that to be annoying, what you went through, lantz.
Then again, what I also find annoying is that there aren't stats for Servants that serve under someone as a what-if, like Kariya with Diarmuid.
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Funny thing is having created role playing game systems I can tell you that there is a way to get the numbers for the thing you're looking for xam, nasu just hasn't released the system specs
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Lantz, I think it's quite dangerous to assume that the stats given to servants follow any kind of consistent pattern. The impression I always got is that Nasu basically pulls them out of his ass based on a very vague concept that a more powerful master means better stats....
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It's clear that it is a RPG pnp system, it goes that nasu has numbers to establish the difference, he just hasn't said anything about how the numbers relate
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No, it's clear that it's meant to look like an RPG system. I'm not at all convinced Nasu actually bothered to work out a proper system for it, rather than just making the numbers up as he went along.
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*ahem* I'd rather this didn't devolve into an argument, so both of you, please let it rest.
Thank you.
Anyway! Another annoyance involves bad use of tropes. I mean, there are some things that make the use of tropes forgivable, but, if you use tropes without a good reason, then that puts your story on my auto-ignore list.
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Well, it depends what you mean by "use of tropes".
Tropes aren't meant to be something you consciously use, they're a list of common things that authors put in works either because people like them or because they're just necessary for the story to work. It's ridiculous to say "don't use tropes", because every story ever has, from ancient mythology to the present day. Having said that, anyone who looks at TV Tropes and says "hey, let's design my character around that trope" is an idiot, because that's not how it's meant to work at all. Tropes are meant to emerge organically as a result of writing the story, not be something you put in artificially so you can say "hey, this character is a Tsundere" or whatever.
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I know what you mean.
Actually, I was talking about what you said is idiotic for what I meant by bad use of tropes. Only an organic feel is a good one, especially in this case.
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Ah, OK, fair enough.
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Yes, indeed.
Should I think of others, I'll let you guys know.
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One thing that bothers me majorly is the worfing in fan fiction it's so damn dumb
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Care to clarify what you mean by that?
Otherwise, I won't know whether to agree with you or to disagree, which means I'll have to be on the fence for it.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect)
I assume that this is what lantz is talking about.
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If that is so, then I'd know what he means, unless it's absolutely necessary in a story (not counting the Ranma 1/2 fanfics out there as listed on TVTropes).
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Yeah, using a character like that just to prove how strong their opponent is rather annoying sometimes. It's understandable, though, because there needs to be some way to prove how strong the character is.
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Yup T that's what I mean, it occurs a lot in hf. And no mike it's not understandable, there's plenty of other ways to prove a character strong without humiliating or disrespecting another character
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I take it you don't like any fiction, then, lantz?
I mean, The Worf Effect is everywhere in the world of fiction, not just fan fiction.
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Wrong, its not everywhere, it's just a common thing, good writers know how to avoid using such a dumb cliche
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Yeah, I have to agree with Xamusel here. It's extremely common.
And, honestly, in certain circumstances there really aren't many ways to show a character is strong. If you're dealing with heroes who are strong, then the only way to make a villain seem like a credible threat is to have it take on someone previously shown to be strong and having them come out on top. Otherwise people just say "well, they've not actually done anything".
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Oh, really, lantz?
Name ten authors of fanfics that don't do this (and fifteen authors of original stuff as well).
@Cherry: Exactly! That's the main thing about The Worf Effect that makes it worth use by most everyone.
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Whilst I agree with you, I'm not sure I could name 10 fanfic authors full stop (at least off the top of my head), so I think that's a bit of an unfair thing to ask.
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Actually, I just wanted to know if lantz could back up his statement about the good writers not resorting to The Worf Effect, and that would mean that I would have to check said authors out personally to see if they are as good as he claims.
I honestly made up that number because I saw the whole "name 5" thing to be over-used.
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It'd be interesting to get some opinions on what authors could do to establish someone as a threat without having to worf a character.
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is blowing up a city/continent/planet, but that has its own inherent problems.
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Yeah, I can agree about the blowing things up part, that's more problematic than it's worth.
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Well, it's kind-of the same thing in any case, only it tends to turn the villain into a complete monster, which might not be the intention. Plus, not all villains are even capable of that.
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True.
Unfortunately, asides from Worfing or Destroyer or Worlds, there really isn't that much I can think of to justify a new villain being a threat. Maybe he's been pulling the strings this whole time, or he does a terrorist thing with bombs, or he murders some secondary character who is ancillary to the plot, or Red Shirting happens, or we find out that he's somehow in control of an entire private army, or something. Telling the readers that he's a threat is obviously not going to work.
I don't know, maybe I'm just not being very creative right now.
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Ubw is a perfect way to show a character being powerful without worfing them, you need not take out the biggest guy effortlessly to prove a character's ability
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It depends how powerful you are.
In HF, the whole point is that the shadow is basically unstoppable. For that to make sense it has to take out the servants. Particularly since they have to be dead for the story to happen. That wasn't any more the Worf effect than Rider dying in UBW is. It's just part of the plot.
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No, you're right, the word effect while cheesy and stupid only ever did it once an episode and not in succession allowing worf to keep his dignity. The shadow and hf's plot on the other hand are bad writing plain and simple. There's no need to kill characters, it was a choice and it was also a choice to make the shadow punk them all. Bad writing especially for the routes preceding events.
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No, for HF to work the servants did need to be killed-off. They're not the focus of events and Shirou etc. didn't have the time to go around fighting them.
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They didn't need to die that way, they could have fought each other and been beaten that way
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They didn't need to die that way, they could have fought each other and been beaten that way
Not given the timetable of the route. Plus, Zouken and the shadow would hardly be a convincing villain if all they could do was kill civilians....
Also, they weren't simply "Worfed", Lancer and Berserker put up quite a fight, Assassin's death was necessary for TA to come out and Caster was tricked by Zouken.
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TA was a sacrifice kill, it's a. Mechanical death, it's not bad writing, as for the timetable excuse that doesn't hold water given how fast servants are, it's unlikely a servant fight would extend beyond an hour.
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Yes, but killing the servants off in random fights would have been just as bad, particularly since that never happened in any of the other routes. Plus, like I said, the shadow needs to be a convincing threat to the other servants, which it's not if it never actually does anything.
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Yeah, what happened in HF wasn't really a worf so much as an establishment of how freaking powerful the shadow is. Really, if it were a true worf, it'd just been one really powerful Servant getting the beatdown instead of multiple Servants getting attacked and killed by the thing. Plus it's technically powered by a grail-backed manifestation of Angra Manyu, so it makes sense that it'd be pretty freaking strong. ...At least I think that's about right, I'm typing this semi-coherent, so I might be remembering something wrong. ^_^"
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You know what pisses me off?
Not having anything to read.
I want to read Rin/Archer. There's none to be found (or the rare stories I do find rip off from me).
I thought not writing fanfic would help this, but nope.
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You know what pisses me off?
Not having anything to read.
I want to read Rin/Archer. There's none to be found (or the rare stories I do find rip off from me).
Honestly, I feel much the same way, particularly when it comes to erotic fiction. The number of fanfics that actually treat Sakura decently is way too low, the amount of porn involving her is lower still and the amount that caters to my specific fetishes is basically zero....
Plus, the position I'm in makes it basically impossible for me to even ask other people to write it or suggest things, because I'm out of contact with the majority of the fandom.
I thought not writing fanfic would help this, but nope.
I'm not sure why you thought that, honestly. If people have ideas, they'll usually write them. Occasionally you'll get people who try to palm their ideas off on you, yes, but most of the time it's pretty independant.
Also, it's quite probable that the very act of writing fics encourages others to be interested in the same area, particularly when they're good fics.
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Honestly, I feel much the same way, particularly when it comes to erotic fiction. The number of fanfics that actually treat Sakura decently is way too low, the amount of porn involving her is lower still and the amount that caters to my specific fetishes is basically zero....
Plus, the position I'm in makes it basically impossible for me to even ask other people to write it or suggest things, because I'm out of contact with the majority of the fandom.
Hey, you got two good Sakura scenes from me!
One that was pretty vanilla and the other that had some kinky stuff to it.
I'm not sure why you thought that, honestly. If people have ideas, they'll usually write them. Occasionally you'll get people who try to palm their ideas off on you, yes, but most of the time it's pretty independant.
Also, it's quite probable that the very act of writing fics encourages others to be interested in the same area, particularly when they're good fics.
Not at all. When I wrote, there was pretty much a lack Archer stuff because it was just automatically assumed that I would write it. I've backed off and well, there's been a little pick up. Even though most of it is, "Let's throw Archer into the 4th War!" fics that became insanely popular for a while.
They can be fun to read, but it just . . . I don't know, it's the same sort of fic.
Yuurei-san was writing a fairly fantastic Rin and Archer story and then she just stopped. And the stuff I find, when I do find it, is ripping off me. Which also pisses me off.
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Honestly, I feel much the same way, particularly when it comes to erotic fiction. The number of fanfics that actually treat Sakura decently is way too low, the amount of porn involving her is lower still and the amount that caters to my specific fetishes is basically zero....
Plus, the position I'm in makes it basically impossible for me to even ask other people to write it or suggest things, because I'm out of contact with the majority of the fandom.
Hey, you got two good Sakura scenes from me!
One that was pretty vanilla and the other that had some kinky stuff to it.
Yeah, true, although actually finding them now isn't that easy, particularly since I don't have the ability to bookmark threads on BL any more....
And, a couple of scenes isn't that much overall. There's considerably more Rin/Archer stuff than that. Not that they're not nice or anything, but it's not very much.
Plus, the one fic I really did like (the Sister Servants one) has disappeared without a trace, and thanks to DP, Altima and the BL mods I can't even bloody ask about it (or, at least, I have no way of getting a response).
I'm not sure why you thought that, honestly. If people have ideas, they'll usually write them. Occasionally you'll get people who try to palm their ideas off on you, yes, but most of the time it's pretty independant.
Also, it's quite probable that the very act of writing fics encourages others to be interested in the same area, particularly when they're good fics.
Not at all. When I wrote, there was pretty much a lack Archer stuff because it was just automatically assumed that I would write it. I've backed off and well, there's been a little pick up. Even though most of it is, "Let's throw Archer into the 4th War!" fics that became insanely popular for a while.
They can be fun to read, but it just . . . I don't know, it's the same sort of fic.
Well, yeah, that's fair enough. But, if you're not writing it then it's difficult to really direct what other people do write.
Even so, I get the impression that Rin/Archer is more popular as a pairing than Shirou/Sakura is....
Yuurei-san was writing a fairly fantastic Rin and Archer story and then she just stopped.
I don't remember that, honestly.
And the stuff I find, when I do find it, is ripping off me. Which also pisses me off.
Well, possibly it's because people want to read your ideas and, since you're not writing them, do so yourself....
Also, you're a good author, it's not surprising that people copy you somewhat.
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Reviving this I guess. Technically not a complaint with fanfiction itself, but with something that happens surrounding fanfiction. I hate hugboxing. Writers don't need to be protected from criticism. Having fans of the work be overprotective of them isn't good for them at all.
And more to do with actual fanfiction, fanfiction with a canon character being wanked and made super overpowered and/or suddenly gain a harem (see, a ton of fanfics involving Shirou) also irritates me. Fanfiction with a Mary Sue OC that tends to get constant praise and adoration even when it's not appropriate to the situation also really annoys the crap outta me.
Bash fics are also stupid, at least when the author treats them as legitimate fiction instead of an outlet- it's one thing to portray a character in a negative light or have something really shitty happen to them, it's another to write a fic featuring a character getting killed horribly by a character the writer thinks is super-special-awesome just because they can't get over them being paired with their waifu or some equally stupid reason. If you have to use it to vent for whatever stupid reason, fine, just don't treat it as if it's even close to legitimate writing.
Hmm, also, Xam, do you mind if I change the title to just, "Things That Annoy You in Fanfiction"?
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Regarding hugboxing... I have to agree with you there. I hate it when people think that they have to be super cuddly to a story and stymie its growth in order for it to "improve".
This is why I go out of my way to improve on my writing. I want to be given legitimate criticism for good reasons.
Alice, sure, go ahead. Thanks for reminding me about this thread and such.
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That's a good attitude to have. :D
And no problem at all. :) I'll go ahead and change the title then.
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Indeed it is.
Anyway, glad that's the case, Alice.
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Bash fics are also stupid, at least when the author treats them as legitimate fiction instead of an outlet- it's one thing to portray a character in a negative light or have something really shitty happen to them, it's another to write a fic featuring a character getting killed horribly by a character the writer thinks is super-special-awesome just because they can't get over them being paired with their waifu or some equally stupid reason. If you have to use it to vent for whatever stupid reason, fine, just don't treat it as if it's even close to legitimate writing.
Yeah, I hate this, except perhaps when it's aimed at characters who are completely irredeemable, like Zouken. And, honestly, I wouldn't accept "venting" as an exception, either.
I also don't like it when people kill characters off gratuitously, or just to get rid of them. It's pretty much bashing, and it's really annoying.
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When I said venting, I meant as in doing so privately and letting the result never see the light of day- writing a bash fic for venting and then presenting it to the public as if it's something to be proud of is something I object to.
And yeah, if it's just done because the writer hates them or decides that the character needs to die for their ship, then it's really annoying. It's just childish and not good writing in the slightest.
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I hate the opposite of hugbox. Criticism to me is the kind gene and Roger gave. Criticism should be civil and positive not angry and loud. Negative reinforcement doesn't work. At least I've never seen it actually do so.
Further I hate it when people don't finish a story and act like they know everything about it and argue with people who have read the whole thing. I also hate people who think that the rules stop applying when you leave scope of story X. Fate and Tsukihime have a rule about age equaling power, it's described referencing how vampires work in the nasuverse but applies to any character but people think that because it wasn't brought up in FSN it doesn't apply.
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Unless it's outright flaming or insults though, all criticism can have value as long as it serves to help the writer/artist/whatever improve themselves. It's not always outright harmful like the hugbox is each and every time. If any of it begins to bother you (this being a general you, by the way), just try to focus on the actual criticism bits or even just block it out and come back to it later when you can handle it better.
But it's my opinion that if you're going to put yourself out there as a writer, you need to develop something of a thick skin, especially if you want to become better at it. Ignoring criticism because it's "mean" or "too harsh" or "they just don't understand my glorious and perfect vision!" is all a really bad move. There can be value even in the meanest of criticisms, if you know where to look.
I guess that's another thing that bugs me a bit, when people avoid giving criticism even after they ask for it just to spare that person's feelings. I guess this one's more specific to me than anything.
When I tend to ask for criticism, I don't tend to get any. Maybe it's because people just have nothing to say about it or because they don't want to hurt my feelings, or in DSM's case I'm the admin (note: don't be scared to give me criticism even though I'm the admin :P), I don't know. But I find it frustrating because not only do I need it to know how to improve, I also need it to know where I stand as a writer. Honestly, it might just be paranoia on my part caused by what's left of my perfectionism, and I'm honestly doing fine and I just can't tell that for myself. But still, I like learning about how to improve, and I wish more people would tell me.
This is honestly I think why people who don't accept criticism about their writing tend to get under my skin. It frustrates me when people actually care enough about what they write to give them critique and they just blow it off or dismiss it or claim that it's all bullying while I just sit there with no one saying anything about the stuff I do. Plus the fact that they're wasting perfectly good advice, that too.
...That was quite the rant, wasn't it? ^_^"
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It seems aimed at me but frankly I'm right in this case. Negative reinforcement never works for me. If people can't be positive or at the very least analytical about what they see then I see no point in paying attention to foul mouth garbage insult or fanboys needing out far too hard. It's called calm discussion and the TM fandom lacks the ability in spades.
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Alright, time to revive the thread, and give it some fresh content.
Namely... I find it highly annoying when people don't go to an author for permission to write a spin-off of some sort. Case in point? TheInfamousMan's Fate:Zero Sense and Fate:Stay Away stories. TIM did not want that to have spin-offs, as it turned out.
Anyway, more will come later.
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Honestly, given that all fanfiction is by definition a "spin-off", I'm not so sure about that. I can see the point of view of the original author, particularly if the spin-offs aren't very good but, at the same time, if Nasu came out and said "I don't want people writing fanfiction of my work", would we stop doing it? Plus, why should a particular author have a monopoly on a concept just because they did it first? Real authors get inspired by stories they read all the time, why should fanfiction be any different?
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Er, *ahem* I didn't mean it like that. By that logic you provided, I'm guilty of it as well. However, what I was talking about was more like this: Suppose I had a story that was popular and good at the same time. Now, this story was so good, I was asked by someone to permit a spin-off to be written of it, and I want to know if the other author is able to write the spin-off to as great a degree as I did. Of course, then there's another author that wrote his/her spin-off of whatever I wrote, but without permission... and almost completely stole my work at the same time. Each case will vary, obviously, and by different amounts.
Note that I never said that a particular author should have a monopoly on a concept. I was talking about how I find it annoying that people tend to rip off the works of others and don't give the original authors credit (or ask for permission to write their own take on a story).
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Once again though how many people give nasu credit when they write any TM fanfiction?
Fanfiction is spinning off of someone else's work without their permission to begin with. Fanfiction that takes from others is about as rationalized to give notice of the original concept as I am to pray to the first person who made scrambled eggs when I make them.
Basically u silly
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I find it irritating only when someone tries to claim the idea as their own when it can be shown it's been come up with before, and it's nice of people to say where they get inspiration from if it's from another fanfiction. Recognition's always nice.
Necessary? No. Nice? Yes.
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@Nachos: At least a few people give Nasu credit... like myself.
No, seriously, I am one to do so.
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Yeah, but I mean if you're on a type-moon forum or on FF.net in one of the type moon sections (FSN, tsuki), people should already know where your stuff's from. And while being grateful of the experience he's given you, thanking nasu in a blurb in a language he can't even read would a)fall on deaf ears and b) be pretty much for its own sake instead of actually giving recognition because hey, if they're reading your type moon FF they already have the type-moon recognition.
@ Andy:Well being a liar's a dick move, yeah. But you shouldn't have to plaster your inspiration sources all over the place unless someone asks or something.
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Purdy much what Nachos said. I mean, if someone's stealing a story wholesale, as in basically doing a find replace sort of thing with someone else's story, than that's a whole different kettle of fish whether it's fanfiction or not, but if it's just fanfiction of fanfiction? I don't see why fanfiction should get more precedence for protection than the very thing it was written from. Hell, unless it's terrible or troll fic, getting fanworks might actually be sort of a good sign, since it shows something about the work interests people enough to even write fanfiction of the fanfiction.
In other words, I echo Nachos on this one. There's far far far worse things in fanfiction than that.
For instance, completely and utterly changing so much that it hardly resembles the source material, with the characters not really resembling themselves either. I mean, there's AU, and then there's butchering the source material completely. I think that's one of the reasons High School AUs are so despised besides being so obnoxiously common and an excuse for the worse of shipping tropes, really, for doing both of these things. It's OK to take a different spin on things, that's why fanfiction exists after all, but at the same time, at least have respect for the source material, good god.
...probably all y'all are thinking of what I'm pointing at primarily here, but let's generally try to keep that to a minimum. There's been a touch too much drama here about said subject already, after all.
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I found a good high school AU of FSN
It's called Fate/Extra
(The tweest is that it's all a computer program)
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That and there's still fightan' :3 That's the thing about all them High School AUs, they take away the fightan'. Which sucks. :(
...Plus they tend to suck all the interesting stuff away too. Which Fate/Extra manages to avoid, thankfully, by bringing in new sorts of interesting. ...Whether the interesting being sucked away in other High School Aus is bad writing, trying to just make it nothing but high school drama, or both is up to you to decide~
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OK, let's go for a few here.
I hate fanfiction that totally ignores the main points of the source material, or doesn't actually even take anything from it in any way aside from a few character names(I can point out a few fics on this site like that...) and then has a Mary Sue OC that is also the child of two of the main characters. I mean, really, if you're going to do that you might as well skip calling it a fanfiction, and then call it what it is - Mary Sue Wish Fulfillment Wankfest.
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I see what you did there.
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I see what you did there.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not referencing any particular person. It's just something I'm ticked off about and may rant sometimes about as well.
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Hue.
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Er, *ahem* I didn't mean it like that. By that logic you provided, I'm guilty of it as well. However, what I was talking about was more like this: Suppose I had a story that was popular and good at the same time. Now, this story was so good, I was asked by someone to permit a spin-off to be written of it, and I want to know if the other author is able to write the spin-off to as great a degree as I did. Of course, then there's another author that wrote his/her spin-off of whatever I wrote, but without permission... and almost completely stole my work at the same time. Each case will vary, obviously, and by different amounts.
Note that I never said that a particular author should have a monopoly on a concept. I was talking about how I find it annoying that people tend to rip off the works of others and don't give the original authors credit (or ask for permission to write their own take on a story).
Well, I think expecting credit if someone uses your idea is fair enough. I'm not sure that having a veto on anyone doing so is, though. I can kind-of see your point, particularly when the spin-off is taking characters from the original and, even, a kind-of sequel to it, but it's not like Nasu gets to veto bad TM fanfiction, so I am not sure fanfic authors should get to do so either.
Once again though how many people give nasu credit when they write any TM fanfiction?
Fanfiction is spinning off of someone else's work without their permission to begin with. Fanfiction that takes from others is about as rationalized to give notice of the original concept as I am to pray to the first person who made scrambled eggs when I make them.
Basically u silly
As you point out below, though, that is a little different, because people already know that TM fanfiction is based around Nasu's work. That isn't necessarily true for fanfics that use other work as inspiration.
For instance, completely and utterly changing so much that it hardly resembles the source material, with the characters not really resembling themselves either. I mean, there's AU, and then there's butchering the source material completely. I think that's one of the reasons High School AUs are so despised besides being so obnoxiously common and an excuse for the worse of shipping tropes, really, for doing both of these things. It's OK to take a different spin on things, that's why fanfiction exists after all, but at the same time, at least have respect for the source material, good god.
...probably all y'all are thinking of what I'm pointing at primarily here, but let's generally try to keep that to a minimum. There's been a touch too much drama here about said subject already, after all.
Well, I think there is a place for stories with completely alternate settings. For example, if you make Sakura remain with the Tohsaka family, you're changing so much that she is going to be a very different character, but I think it's still an interesting story.
I also think that completely changing the setting but keeping the characters can be interesting in some situations. Some people are interested in the characters rather than the setting that they're in. And, I think doing so is certainly no worse than completely OC-filled Grail War fanfics or the like (where you keep the setting but discard the characters), which most people are perfectly fine with.
That and there's still fightan' :3 That's the thing about all them High School AUs, they take away the fightan'. Which sucks. :(
...Plus they tend to suck all the interesting stuff away too. Which Fate/Extra manages to avoid, thankfully, by bringing in new sorts of interesting. ...Whether the interesting being sucked away in other High School Aus is bad writing, trying to just make it nothing but high school drama, or both is up to you to decide~
Not everyone likes the "fighting" aspect, though, so I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. High-School AU fics do have the issue that nothing much replaces it, though, yes.
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Well, I think there is a place for stories with completely alternate settings. For example, if you make Sakura remain with the Tohsaka family, you're changing so much that she is going to be a very different character, but I think it's still an interesting story.
I also think that completely changing the setting but keeping the characters can be interesting in some situations. Some people are interested in the characters rather than the setting that they're in. And, I think doing so is certainly no worse than completely OC-filled Grail War fanfics or the like (where you keep the setting but discard the characters), which most people are perfectly fine with.
That's not what I'm talking about so much. For instance, there's things I take umbrage with in Prisma, but they have little to do with the setting change or even some of the character changes. Nah, more want I'm talking about is if there is so much stripped away, both in terms of character and setting, that it doesn't even remotely resemble anything from the source work, and more or less spits in its face. There's a difference between doing a scenario like you described, for instance, and changing the mechanics of the universe entirely along with pretty much most all characterization while making most everything revolve around an OC instead of the main cast (again, know what you people are thinking here, and again, let's keep the drama to a minimum).
It's not alternate scenarios I'm against, because if that were the case, I'd be a huge hypocrite, it's basically someone changing pretty much everything to suit their own wish fulfillment. One example of this that doesn't quite fit what I'm describing but kinda fits into the character thing a bit is the scenario where Shirou is turned into an all powerful Gary Stu and suddenly can do pretty much everything and also gets all the ladies. It's stuff like that I hate, not exploring a different possibility that'd result in characters being different people. ...Basically, while evading a certain example, it's somewhat difficult to explain. ^^"
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Well, yeah, I guess. I think changing the basic rules of the setting but having characters that are recognisably the original characters (e.g. an AU placing the original characters in different universe with different rules) is OK, although I think it probably only works if it doesn't try to take itself too seriously, as is a completely OC-filled story set in the Nasuverse, but changing both makes it no longer a fanfic in any meaningful sense, and if you're going to do that you might as well just call it an original work (certainly I've had ideas before where the characters are based on Nasuverse characters, but are different enough that it would be meaningless to call it a fanfic). I think there is some leeway there, though, particularly in the case of porn (and especially porn with images), since in that case what the character looks like does matter somewhat.
As for the "Shirou is a Gary Stu" thing, that's more just bad characterisation and bad writing, really. I don't think disliking bad writing is exclusive to you, I think everyone does (although they may not always agree on what constitutes "bad writing"). I'd say there's a definite distinction between someone just not writing a good story and someone writing a good story that is a fanfic in name only.
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@Alice: Why not go with ThirdFang's Shirou from From Fake Dreams?
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@Alice: Why not go with ThirdFang's Shirou from From Fake Dreams?
You realize that pretty much hits every button for "power fantasy character changing wish fulfillment" Alice complained about.
Also, dude surfs on swords. The fuck, he ain't Jack Rakan.
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Yeah, I think that is the point he was making.
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Yes, that was the point I was making, YOLF.
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Too lazy to read all of the conversation, only respond in the context of latest post and skimmed info, this is what happens.
I was distracted, sorry.
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Nah, don't apologize. ...Because pretty much I have a hard time accepting Thirdfang's Shirou for exactly the reasons you stated. ^^"
I mean, if a character is powerful and also written well at the start, fine. But don't go turning a character who is on the weaker side ultra powerful unless it makes sense to do so and there's a natural progression to it. With the Shirou cases, there pretty much never is. Not that I'm going to let a character that's powerful to start with off the hook necessarily either, if they're poorly written, because that threatens to go into sue territory. But that's a whole different can of worms.
...Sorry I didn't respond earlier, btw. Mostly I wanted to avoid the whole Thirdfang can of worms.
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RN's Dead Apostle Sakura makes more sense than ThirdFang's Dead Apostle Shirou.
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...care to elaborate on the "RN's Dead Apostle Sakura" bit? I don't know if you mean Realta Nua or not.
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I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean Realta Nua, because Realta Nua doesn't have a Dead Apostle Sakura. Realta Nua is basically just the original FSN VN with the sex taken out.
I assume she means some fanfic author, but I don't recall a story with Sakura as a Dead Apostle, and I'd have thought I would have noticed it.
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Actually I think she's referring to the blood drinking bit as a sex replacement.
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Either way, we'll need her confirmation on that part, because I'd rather not be assuming one thing or the other.
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Actually I think she's referring to the blood drinking bit as a sex replacement.
Ah, right, OK.
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I thought the joke was obvious.
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...that was a joke?
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The only thing that annoys me in fan fiction is readers demanding to be spoiled or not paying attention to explanations. Notably Sakura in swords and sorcery, she wasn't raped, that would be internally inconsistent with not only the established power level given but with the theme of the event in general. It's not blindingly obvious because I don't like exposition being literally a mood killer.
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No no no no you said she was raped. You pretty much explicitly spelled that out.
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That doesn't always mean it's true. Lantz's stuff has a first-person narrator, so all you know is what the narrator believes to be true.
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No, because it is shown to him, he even says he saw it.
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Was she raped or not? That is like one of her gimmicks.
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Was she raped or not? That is like one of her gimmicks.
I remember the sight of Gilgamesh violating my Aunt Sakura as he snapped my little sister's neck like a twig
Yep, raped.
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First person narrative is not reliable Arch, the difference between first and third is massive, so much so that the whole difference was spelled out on bl when discussing Sakura and her dark state. So no, she was not raped. He just thought she was. It was an act.
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it was an act?
Lol gilgamesh pretended to rape her just to fuck with him
"Is he watching? Is he watching? This is so going on youtube."
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Yes, no I'm not lying, it's all to completely wreck his mind.
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you seem to misunderstand gilgamesh
If he was trying to traumatize a boy with the picture of his glorious self fucking the boy's aunt senseless, he wouldn't pretend to do it.
He'd just do it.
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you seem to misunderstand gilgamesh
If he was trying to traumatize a boy with the picture of his glorious self fucking the boy's aunt senseless, he wouldn't pretend to do it.
He'd just do it.
Exactly. Gil doesn't fuck around when he's actually giving a shit. He'd just rape her (though why he'd want Shinji's sloppy seconds is beyond me)
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No, I don't, I just know the difference between canon and the events that happen to change him. This Gil is not unlike Ko Gil
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you mean the ko-gil who knows how to let go of things like grudges and doesn't ever really want to start a fight?
@ Arch: I meant more that Gil has a thing against faking, shams, and, well...
Pretenders.
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No, I don't, I just know the difference between canon and the events that happen to change him. This Gil is not unlike Ko Gil
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha what?
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More or less names, his history is meddled with, he's playing a villain to save the multiverse. Which makes him the king of heroes for real. It's all an act, time travel and magic shenanigans. Gilgamesh is one of the good guys here despite the act.
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...What? Then why did he need to do all that shit?
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because he's a good guy and acting the villain and pretending to rape/kill his entire damily to get another good guy up off of his ass instead of dragging him out of bed and motivating him the good old fashion is more, uh...
I forgot where I was going with this.
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Okay, if someone could please translate what Lantz is saying, that would be appreciated.
Lantz, I don't mean to be rude, but... well, even by my standards, that's confusing as all hell.
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Do you all remember Kirei's speech to Shirou about heroes needing villains? So, yeah, that.
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You mean the whole "To save people, people must be in danger to begin with." Thing he said to make Shirou's wish to save people darker, because that it meant Shirou also wanted people to be in danger?
You know what okay, let's consider that Satoshi needs a villain. Why would Gil consider becoming that guy for the greater good? Even if he did get involved, why not just point at the real villain instead of going through all of that huge contrivance?
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@lantz: ...now that you explained it somewhat, I can understand where you're coming from (to a degree).
Still, maybe you should clarify all of what makes your Gilgamesh tick at some point? I'm not saying you need spoilers for the stories... far from it. Just when you're ready (and so long as someone can translate what you're typing... you'll need to do something about how confusing your words are to others, even me, who can understand most things).
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Keep in mind three things names
1) The person at the head of this whole plan is Merlin, so necessity in the logical sense we use isn't the same
2) Gilgamesh hates two things more than fakers, gods and monsters
3) Gil isn't a bad guy, he just has a very different common sense.
in any case I'm not sure continuing this is appropriate for the thread, good discussion but not sure it's the place
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...yeah, Lantz nailed it, we need to discuss the topic of the thread more.
What annoys me in fanfiction? My own writing. I hate that I absolutely SUCK!!
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I dunno, Gilgamesh being out of character and overly convoluted character-created schemes that didn't need to happen and don't really resound with the character are two things that annoy me in fanfiction.
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...as it stands, the main thing about my writing is that I don't prewrite, at least not even close to enough. I find it annoying that my attempts at writing stuff falls flat because of this.
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Why doesn't Gil just go off and do all that shit though? He's incorruptible by AM and is also by far the most powerful heroic spirit. He has a weapon that rends space and time, and as AM is sort of a divinity, Enkidu would hold it back. Why not just sic Gil on the thing?
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Lantz does have a valid point there, this isn't the "Lantz fanfic discussion thread", I'm not sure this is the place for a long, drawn-out discussion of his stories.
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@Everyone but Cherry: I also find it annoying that you guys are missing the whole point of this thread... keep the discussion of Lantz' fics out of here, please.
@Cherry: Glad you decided to show up, man. Got any thoughts about what my annoyances are in writing?
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Lantz does have a valid point there, this isn't the "Lantz fanfic discussion thread", I'm not sure this is the place for a long, drawn-out discussion of his stories.
Well, he had all the threads where we could do so locked.
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...okay, if it's alright with the administration and lantz, I'll post such a thread to have the discussion take place (and I'll ensure it stays up).
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If Lantz is OK with it then that's fine by me, but I'm not sure if he wants such a thread.
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I would only put it up if he wanted it up... that's all.
*ahem* ANYWAY! Should I write a thread asking for help with prewriting? That seems to be my main issue right now.
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I'd prefer to wait until there's enough on site to have a proper discussion.
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I'd prefer to wait until there's enough on site to have a proper discussion.
lantz... care to elaborate this sentence? I'm starting to get confused... again.
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Honestly, it might not hurt to have a thread open to act as a containment thread. Otherwise these derails are going to keep happening. ...I kinda insist since, interestingly enough, it's actually lantz that brought this particular derail on in the first place. Not directly, but still.
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...nothing on my annoyance?
Well, I'm working on it, but it'll take a while.
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No Alice, I reformatted the story and am waiting on betaing to be finished, until then I'm not opening a thread because all it will wind up doing is confusing things further or encourage bashing or violent speculation as past threads have proven.
in short, not until I feel there's enough content up.
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...so Leo was being serious?
That's something.
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He isn't the beta for it Xam. He couldn't handle the tone.
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Ah. I see what you mean now.
Still, now that I'm thinking on it, who is the beta?
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He isn't the beta for it Xam. He couldn't handle the tone.
More likely he couldn't handle how stupid your story plans are but I digress.
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Magos, while I'm not Cherry, could you please keep the arguing with lantz out of my threads? I'd much appreciate it.
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This is why I'm asking for a containment thread. Even if it's not "ready," this stuff is going to come up in one thread or another, as demonstrated here. Plus it's kinda ironic, given past discussion threads were made by lantz himself. But yes, I do think we need a containment thread. So the lantz derails stay in one place instead of consuming the forum like some sort of plague.
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Alright, then. I volunteer this thread to be the containment thread, but only when it's needed. When it isn't needed, please, make sure everyone goes to the correct thread.
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Actually, I believe the better idea here would be to just drop the topic, since making another thread for it will just end up as a repeat of previous events.
So, please, let's just move on to another topic.
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Works for me.
So... back to things that annoy people in Fanfiction?
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Repeat the war cliché (Not in the sense of pre fate but post) and the keeping Ilya a child thing, look I get it that her body is messed up but when it can reasonably be fixed then just do it.
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Hmm... you get annoyed by 6th Grail War fics? Is that what I'm hearing from you?
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Wanting to repair Ilya's body is a canon revisionism which I oppose.
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Why? We know it's possible to do such things, because Shirou gets a puppet body at the end of HF, and the impression I get from what she says in HF is that Ilya's problem is with her body and not her soul, so she should be able to get a "proper" body and grow into a true adult.
Nasu also does hint at the idea of Ilya finding a way to survive post-Fate in the Hot Springs episode, so it's not really "canon revisionism" to do so. Nasu himself never ruled it out.
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I simply don't want any risk of flanderizing her into second Iri, because Iri is boring.
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I think that having her as an eternal child would be even worse, honestly. It prevents her having much if any character development, because everyone will always see her as a little kid.
And, actually, Ilya is probably more mature than Iri is. She still acts somewhat childish, yes, but she shows she is capable of being serious when necessary.
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Iri is a bit dull but then fate zero was as a whole imo. Prequels suck the fun out. And want Ilya to have a body is not revisionism, it's progression, if she lives then making her body work normally is honestly a matter of course, if not, well, enjoy your dead loli I guess.
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People who want adult Ilya just want h-doujins of her without lolicon baggage, hue.
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Not everyone X, I just want her to be able to be normal
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She is a homunculus, so she never will be.
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That's not really true. Sure, she's never going to just be a normal human, but nor are Rin or Sakura. That doesn't mean she can't have a reasonably "normal" life.
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X you're being needlessly literal and bleak
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X you're being needlessly literal and bleak
So telling the truth and being rational about it is a horrible thing?
Ilya is pretty much fated to die young. That's a given.
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Lantz, Fate Stay Night is no all rainbows.
I do not recommend you then reading Far Side, if bleakness offends you
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X, I've actually read both novels 100%. I know full well what the far side is, in the future, please do not talk down to me.
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X you're being needlessly literal and bleak
So telling the truth and being rational about it is a horrible thing?
Ilya is pretty much fated to die young. That's a given.
Except that Nasu dropped some pretty big damn hints that that is not necessarily the case. We don't know for sure, of course, but I don't think Nasu ever intended to rule out the possibility.
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Didn't HF state that Ilya had about a year left in her?
Anyway, Lantz, we'd be a lot less inclined to 'talk down' to you if you didn't think Silver Age mentality was compatible with the Nasuverse.
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X, I've actually read both novels 100%. I know full well what the far side is, in the future, please do not talk down to me.
Lantz, I think she meant the fanfic Fate/Far Side, though I could be wrong.
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Ilya cannot save herself even with that knock-off of 3rd Magic, otherwise, she would have done it to survive.
Nasu is very clear on that she dies year after Fate or HF Normal.
@Xamusel
No comment.
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X, I've actually read both novels 100%. I know full well what the far side is, in the future, please do not talk down to me.
Lantz, I think she meant the fanfic Fate/Far Side, though I could be wrong.
No, I'm pretty sure she meant the Far Side of Tsukihime....
Ilya cannot save herself even with that knock-off of 3rd Magic, otherwise, she would have done it to survive.
Nasu is very clear on that she dies year after Fate or HF Normal.
Where is he clear on that? And, no, Ilya talking to Zouken mid-route (or whatever) doesn't count, because Ilya is not omniscient and she's not Nasu. I mean a specific statement from Nasu that states or at least strongly hints that she will not survive.
In the Hot Springs episode you get if you get all of the endings, Ilya is asked if she has a way to survive, and the answer is "maybe", in a way that definitely implies she does. I don't see anything from Nasu that has ever said conclusively that Ilya will die post-Fate.
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She does have a way, but her body will die anyway - she can shove her soul into another container I guess.
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That's the best bet, from what we know, anyway.
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But not a puppet body. All she did with her knock off 3rd Magic was putting Shirou's soul in a locket.
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Which, for all we know, is not all she can do.
So long as the possibility exists... it can happen.
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She does have a way, but her body will die anyway - she can shove her soul into another container I guess.
Well, yeah, but that is hardly an impossible feat. And it doesn't necessarily even require the Third Magic, as Touko shows.
But not a puppet body. All she did with her knock off 3rd Magic was putting Shirou's soul in a locket.
But, Shirou ended up in a puppet body eventually, so why couldn't she?
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Too many variables. Shirou is a human, Ilya is a homunculus, the make up of her soul must be different.
Which, for all we know, is not all she can do.
This is not what REAL 3rd Magic is supposed to do.
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Too many variables. Shirou is a human, Ilya is a homunculus, the make up of her soul must be different.
I'm not sure that's true, and even if it is I don't see how it implies that it's impossible for Ilya to find a puppet body.
Which, for all we know, is not all she can do.
This is not what REAL 3rd Magic is supposed to do.
What?
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REAL 3rd Magic is supposed to give the soul a physical form and grant it unlimited prana.
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when it can reasonably be fixed then just do it.
source?
Because I mean if it was actually possible you'd think people would know
And Mike going "maybe" at a yes/no question isn't implications, it's WOLOLOLO because nasu felt like it. Which he's done many times. So unless he actually "yeah" at something I'm not holding my breath.
Anyway, Ilya is like a fine dessert, you appreciate her as glorious and great and amazing for a short time and then she's gone, but you truly appreciate the moments you spent on her. And though you wish it could have lasted longer, you feel perfectly satisfied with what you got.
Meanwhile the heroines are like bags of chips that you can just keep eating forever that never truly satisfy you because unlike with Ilya where the game is trying to sell her to Shirou as a little sister and in a non-sexual role, the game tries to make you lust after the heroines with sex scenes and SABER'S MUSCLES AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. And because you can't stick your dick in the heroines it will never be as 100% satisfying as truly getting to know the pure little snow angel who protected her little brother.
Basically old Ilya is pointless, long living Ilya is nothing but a shallow illusion, but FSN Ilya who got to know her brother is nothing short of perfection and I would never change that.
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Names, we all know Ayako is best girl and Ilya is relegated to side status as a psuedo-imouto.
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are you me
I mean Ayako is best girl as in wud fuq but Ilya is best girl that I wud little sister
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are you me
I mean Ayako is best girl as in wud fuq but Ilya is best girl that I wud little sister
I know right?
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I never said that Arch, as usual you're being ignorant.
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Because I mean if it was actually possible you'd think people would know
Only if Nasu has actually stated either way.
And Mike going "maybe" at a yes/no question isn't implications, it's WOLOLOLO because nasu felt like it. Which he's done many times. So unless he actually "yeah" at something I'm not holding my breath.
Honestly, I think that it was definitely meant to imply she could, but without having to really explain it.
Anyway, Ilya is like a fine dessert, you appreciate her as glorious and great and amazing for a short time and then she's gone, but you truly appreciate the moments you spent on her. And though you wish it could have lasted longer, you feel perfectly satisfied with what you got.
Meanwhile the heroines are like bags of chips that you can just keep eating forever that never truly satisfy you because unlike with Ilya where the game is trying to sell her to Shirou as a little sister and in a non-sexual role, the game tries to make you lust after the heroines with sex scenes and SABER'S MUSCLES AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. And because you can't stick your dick in the heroines it will never be as 100% satisfying as truly getting to know the pure little snow angel who protected her little brother.
Basically old Ilya is pointless, long living Ilya is nothing but a shallow illusion, but FSN Ilya who got to know her brother is nothing short of perfection and I would never change that.
Well, that's your viewpoint I guess. I don't agree, and I certainly don't think that she is guarenteed to die. The Nasuverse has way too many weird things happening to say that.
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...so Leo was being serious?
That's something.
Why would I have not been serious? I am a serious person.
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Huh, it's Leo, wasn't expecting that. Interesting name you got there.
And as for the Illya stuff, eh, let's go ahead and rerail the discussion. We're probably getting close enough to the point where it's going to just start round robining anyway.
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Huh, it's Leo, wasn't expecting that. Interesting name you got there.
What can I say, it's variety.
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I don't see why the subject would repeat, the whole Ilya issue is, in the end, a matter of opinion. In either case we both obviously like Ilya enough to have the discussion so I'd call it a win regardless.
And for the record I agree, Ilya is the best little sister, it's the reason there was a Ilya route discussed, the short version is that Gilgamesh dies painfully.
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lantz, what part of "stop the derail" do you never seem to understand? Derail, stop, now-ish.
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I never said that Arch, as usual you're being ignorant.
Nope, you did. http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,367.0.html (http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,367.0.html)
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No Arch, you misread it, I said comic books match the Nasuverse, the silver age reference is referring to a different matter.
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As for derail #2, this is why I say we need a containment thread. :V
Probably best to stop this one too.
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No Arch, you misread it, I said comic books match the Nasuverse, the silver age reference is referring to a different matter.
Forgive this one Alice, because I can't resist.
Are you really, really, actually this damn stupid to think that?
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OK, seriously, please stop before another argument starts. Now.
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OK, seriously, please stop before another argument starts. Now.
Wow is it like this every day?
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Not everyday (though it can be like that sometimes), but often enough to be a pain. 98% of the time it involves... well, hopefully who it all involves normally is obvious enough. Welcome to DSM administration team's nightmare! :D
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Not everyday, but it has happened enough to be foreseeable.
Snipe.
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I find that the Ilya thing isn't a derail, I did as the thread suggested and names gave his opinion. Ilya was the subject and the thread is about annoying things in fan fiction. No derail there, as for the rest, I'm fairly insulted at the implication.
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Well, it didn't start as such, but it has moved from why it annoys you in fanfics to why the idea can/can't work. Plus, I still want the topic to stop before it gets into a personal argument between you and Magos, or anyone else (which, from experience, it probably will).
You already gave your points, just leave it at that for now, OK?
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I don't intend on engaging Arch Kaiza, I was being informational, that's all. And yes you are correct that it moved away the initial subject but we don't have a place for that sort of discussion at the moment.
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Well, a thread for stuff like this was just created (here (http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,371.0.html)), in case you want a more in depth discussion on the matter. I just want you guys to be civil here, OK?
And this goes for all of you (you too, Magos, please stop going after him).
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I would also like to add this. lantz, Magos, and Mike too, stop dragging out the argument. You keep ignoring the admins on that front. Stop. And lantz, you don't need to constantly keep being defensive over your actions, you only make it all worse, so stop doing that, and stop dragging it out constantly. Again, that goes for everyone else too. Please stop when we tell you to stop.
Now, this discussion officially ends here. Let's get the thread back on topic.
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I mean Ayako is best girl as in wud fuq but Ilya is best girl that I wud little sister
Something better:
Replace FSN cast with the superior KnK cast.
Fujinon replacing Sakura, for starters.
and Tomoe instead of Shirou, of course.
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inb4 which cast is better fight
Who would Shiki be then?
...Also, letting this derail through since we need a breather in this thread and to show that derails are fine and cool if they're not on the verge of becoming a huge drama-fest or on the verge of going in some big, huge circle, but please keep it drama free, no (actual, anger induced) fighting, etc. I'd rather have to shut a derail down because it's been going on for too long rather than because of more drama-y stuff.
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The Captain of Archery club.
Nasu himself joked Ayako fell in love with Mikiya, but got rejected, making fun of physical similarities between her and Shiki.
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I hate it when author's use the infinite worlds to create any AU with little justification. If there is an AU I want more than "There are infinite worlds. It's possible somehow so deal with it.". If it's an alternate universe than I want to know why whatever changed was changed. How were other things affected as a result of this change? Why did certain events that created this outcome change?
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I hate it when author's use the infinite worlds to create any AU with little justification. If there is an AU I want more than "There are infinite worlds. It's possible somehow so deal with it.". If it's an alternate universe than I want to know why whatever changed was changed. How were other things affected as a result of this change? Why did certain events that created this outcome change?
Oh my god, you too? I didn't know we had so much in common.
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You are great person Brah. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
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Alright, while a legit topic for discussion, nippin' this one in the bud due to recent drama (or rather, how it's related to recent drama).
Let's move on to something else please~
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Hello! I just came in from Beast Lair!
I've been converted to our almighty goddess!
As for things that annoy me in fanfiction, fics that take the time to describe how much canon Shirou sucks in comparison to their "speshul" Shirous. It shouldn't have to be a contest on who's Shirou is superior, different Shirous do different things and have different themes/wish fulfillments (in some cases). Can't we just enjoy the Shirou we like without having people complaining about him? For example, Shirou from Heaven's Feel, for his choice in the CORRECT heroine, as well as him getting Archer's arm.
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Also, I didn't know that Xamusel was here....
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Akiha is the best grill, hue.
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Made a mistake over what I said, sorry.
As for Akiha, well I don't mind them flatter, but I go for getting drugged and murdered by Kohaku.
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Better go for the original Yandere, Fujinon.
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mmmmmmmmmmmm........... Fujinon........
Room is surprisingly empty....
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Something that annoys me in fanfiction is when an author claims that yeah they understand what the people are saying and then next chapter make the same mistake and then go ">.< sorryyyyy I won't do that again :P"
The emoticons make it worse.
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Its sad to hear that something like that happens. Then again, it takes time to read reviews and that is too tiring for the imaginative minds of authors.
Lets see..... Introducing anime servants to rofl stomp the grail war and solve all the problems? I saw one with a negima crossover.
......................
Hell with almost all the negima crossovers with FSN.
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Negima is too whack for the nasuverse
SPEED OF LIGHTNING
RAKAN
UNKILLABLE IDIOTS
UNTOUCHABLE ALBA
I don't see it properly crossovering with much actually, it fits itself too much and not much else.
Maybe Index.
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Indeed indeed. However, people get a high of really powerful idiots who win really easily and solve the whole plot in an hour. It was funny seeing a berserker Negi being calm because HE MASTERED HIS DARKNESS. Then he proceeds to be his dark Negi form and get a harem in the process.
It might cross over with Index, but they just introduced the continuation of Negima, so power levels are probably going to be readjusted and Index might need to pull some really big shit to do something.
Whatever, let's just throw Goku at all our shounen anime problems.
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...okay, should have seen this sooner, that I was mentioned in thread.
Sorry for the delay to get back, was at a writer's workshop, for the first time with this group.
Anyway, I have to agree with the annoyances about shounen franchises... mainly because I don't get what makes them work, and how they screw with the laws of reality all that much (unless it was given plenty of reasonable explanation in-universe... otherwise, well, I'd be inclined to make it make sense to anyone that knows my thought processes).
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My issue with shounen isn't how they defy physics, but that when they enter Nasuverse people's enthusiasm for curb stomps and their physics defiance makes them disrespect FSN.
It would require effort to maintain the balance level, but we need more evened out fights or battles that require more thought put into it rather than "throw out super attack".
Also, it irks me when fabric writers use the word effortlessly. Effortlessly, like how they effortlessly dodge this attack, or effortlessly defeat someone. It feels demeaning to the other party.
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Also, my mistake Xamusel. I mistook you for someone else. It was an old FSN/MGLN crossover idea that didn't even take off that I was hyped for.
BTW, has anyone seen Fate's Gamble's Harry Potter? Not the premise, but the current design of Harry Potter?
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Huh. I see what you mean.
Well, I hope that I can avoid using the word "effortlessly" in that context, as well as maintain the balance level of shounen and Nasuverse (should it ever happen).
Also, which story were you hyped for, anyway?
In regards to Fate's Gamble's Harry Potter, well, I've seen him. I'm still working on giving him a reasonable challenge in my spin-off of the story... but my focus has been elsewhere.
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It was a silly thing really. The author said he'd have Shirou in Mid Childa, and that he'd do the story justice. Never went past the proclamation.
What? You're doing a spin off of that story? I see... Harry in that fic is quite........
Different. I was going to say he had certain aspects similar to Satoshi.
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Yeah... let's not go into the Satoshi bit, please. I can understand what you mean, but, for the mental health of Alice, let's just avoid that topic.
Still, I had a fair bit of the spin off done, but I decided to rewrite it (because I think I had things in way too contrived a manner at the original version).
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Anything related to Satoshi is a threat to the public health.
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I heard.
So what's your new idea for the spin off about?
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Also, it irks me when fabric writers use the word effortlessly. Effortlessly, like how they effortlessly dodge this attack, or effortlessly defeat someone. It feels demeaning to the other party.
Well, yeah, that's the point of describing it in such a way?
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And then fanfic writers spam the word effortlessly effortlessly.
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Don't nitpick.
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Yes Ms. Person who Looks Like a Heroine I Know.
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So what's your new idea for the spin off about?
Well, the spin-off was initially written in a way that was utterly contrived, with Harry and Hermione being in the Fuyuki park when Tokiomi and Sakura were a distance outside the meeting area where Sakura was supposed to be given to someone other than Zouken (before I thought to have Zouken attempt to kidnap Sakura that way, with the attempt foiled).
Now? Well, I was thinking of having Harry and Hermione end up at the Tohsaka Manor to register as citizen Magi (so to speak) after arriving in Fuyuki the way they left Hogwarts (Hermione broke a Time Turner and both she and Harry got touched by it... that, plus Harry being a practitioner of the 2nd (somewhat), took them outside of their home dimension).
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wtfffffffffffffffffffffff
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Leo, blame the concept of the original story, which I'm spinning off of.
Normally, I wouldn't even go that far, but that limit was for canon!Harry Potter.
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Its confusing and contrived.
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qwerty, I can understand it being confusing and contrived, but only if I knew what part of it was... could you elaborate?
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Alot of that plot. Unfortunately, I'm not fluent in Gumblepotter.
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You mean my idea? Or the original story?
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The plot of that story is simple, but the means to getting there are a bit much. Mostly, I just can't comprehend the existence of Hair powers Harry.
Hair power Harry... Lol.
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Hrm... I see what you mean.
Well, I do plan on making things less complicated, so to speak.
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I pray for your success.
I mean for your fic, and not the popularity of FG Harry. FG Harry crossed another line for me when Harry killed Gilgamesh with some variant of all the world's evil.
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*shudders* I don't want to think of Gilgamesh dying by Harry varying Angra Mainyu on him.
Anyway, yeah, I understand what you mean.
Now... back on topic?
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Isn't that what happens to him in HF, though...?
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...it took me a bit to realize you meant Gilgamesh.
Actually, now that I think about it, possibly (given what Sakura was at the time).
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Well, Sakura certainly ate him, and AM was definitely involved in her doing so.
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Sakura was tied to the Grail system which has precedence over Gil's existence.
I think its more like the shadow was the system, and Gil couldn't do much against it because he was a part of it.
Harry used All the World's Evil, not the grail.
If he did use the grail, he's worse then I thought.
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...yeah, no.
Harry is a separate Grail System, in-story (he's aligned to the 3rd more than the 2nd).
Anyway, to remove much of the BS that Fate's Gamble!Harry Potter has, I intend to have him be kept under Zouken's thumb (because he and Hermione managed to keep Sakura away from the Matou, or so he reasoned to himself), so a lot of Harry's abilities will need to be toned down because of that.
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Sorry if I was wrong about that part, but Harry is another grail system?!?! What?! More to the 3rd than the 2nd?! You can be aligned to 2?!?!?!
Could you give him a personality that gave "some" shit about other people? I don't really keep up that much with FGarry.
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literally wtf
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Yeah, I planned on actually giving him a personality that cared for others (to an extent), especially since he'd be stuck in that world while Hermione is suffering from Zouken's grasp (how I intended for Harry to be kept under Zouken's thumb).
Anyway, yeah, working on it right now... and aiming to keep it reasonable.
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good luck on that xamusel. Really.
FG Harry is just....... If I were to describe him.....
He could make his own list of powers that could make about 3 characters overpowered.
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I don't blame you for thinking that. Honest.
I actually intend to limit him overall (if possible).
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I want to know more about FG Harry to know more about your fic Xamusel honest.
But that's FGarry.........
Its existence frightens me.
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(/)_-) I honestly don't blame you for that.
Therefore, I honestly plan to make Harry from Fate's Gamble more... appealing, and less frightening.
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Taking out Gilgamesh with some ass pulled and impossibru method to strip him of all powers. Just what Lantz did in his malformed quest.
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Wouldn't it be best to rage at the very fic itself cat? Oh well, its not like your the only one. Geezus fucking christ that fic is bad.
Extremely short, little details given, Gil taken out (WTF?@!), choices that mean nothing, and wanking of his OC. Don't worry, he'll say with a straight face that none of that is true, and that his fic will be better with more updates.
Also, I'm a cat too except I'm an armadillo at the moment.
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The fic has hardly got anywhere yet, so of course there aren't many details just yet. And, no, the choices don't mean nothing. We have no idea how things might have changed with a different choice. Plus, FSN has plenty of choices that have little or no effect on the game, so that is hardly a meaningful criticism.
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Taking out Gilgamesh with some ass pulled and impossibru method to strip him of all powers. Just what Lantz did in his malformed quest.
What did I miss? I really don't feel like trudging through the thread.
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I'm wondering this too, I've been avoiding that thread (the BL version, I mean) for my own health.
Also, preemptive admin statement, keep it cool in here about this, alright?
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extremely short chapter length and FSN has right and wrong choices (so that has some meaning). Besides, those have a set course from the beginning, so they can't truly create a story with hundreds of different paths, so you can hardly criticize them for that.
Lantz is writing a fanfiction with choices, giving them to people, and not doing anything with them right away. At the moment, people are pissed since it seems like the choice people had didn't mean anything. However, I'm guessing he'll let "Shirou" get a day in the spotlight later in the story, and the decision for Archer to be sub leader will happen later.
Also, Gil being taken out by some external force with ease what? Even Sakura got temporarily butchered by Gil, and only took him out because he UNDERESTIMATED IT. Here, Gil gets knocked unconscious from some unknown force, and people are expected to go "well that could just as easily happen to anyone in the room"? It should never be this easy to take out the guy that could take being bathed in all the world's evil and think that that was Tuesday.
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Sorry if it got a little loud in here Alice. I'll try to be more quiet.
As for what's happening, Nasu cast is trapped in different place (world? dimension?), and evil force kidnapped some of the ladies. Satoshi is POV character (at the moment?), and evil voice shows how evil it is by knocking out Gilgamesh with a thought, while Satoshi feels some heat lost in his chest. Voice enforces rules for slice of life / survival rules and gives back the girls.
Now, shall Satoshi cook, meet with kidnapped girls, or sit down and recover?
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Well, if it was any type of mental assault it would fail terribly against Gil for reasons stated above. Unless this is a Type level being I have no idea how it could even try to go for a mental attack. Even then it shouldn't be an instant KO. He is the King after all. There is also the problem that any entity that did that should be able to take out the entire cast with minimal effort. If it simply wants entertainment then the story could never end because with a thought it could annihilate the whole cast so they would need to do what he says.
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extremely short chapter length and FSN has right and wrong choices (so that has some meaning).
Well, the chapters are short because it is the introduction, I think, plus it gives more interaction with the players that way. I don't see the problem with it, honestly.
Besides, those have a set course from the beginning, so they can't truly create a story with hundreds of different paths, so you can hardly criticize them for that.
Perhaps, but my point is that not every choice has to be life-or-death. Lantz has the possibility here to make choices have a more subtle effect. And, yes, sometimes a choice will turn out not to happen, FSN has that too (there are a few choices where you say you don't want to do something and then end up doing it anyway because of circumstances), and plenty of other games do as well.
Lantz is writing a fanfiction with choices, giving them to people, and not doing anything with them right away. At the moment, people are pissed since it seems like the choice people had didn't mean anything. However, I'm guessing he'll let "Shirou" get a day in the spotlight later in the story, and the decision for Archer to be sub leader will happen later.
Well, there are certainly right and wrong choices, although I don't think the effects of them are quite so brutal as they are in FSN. And, if nothing else you get character points for voting for the correct choice.
I think that playing it like FSN where every bad choice led to a bad end wouldn't fit with the intention. Bad choices here have longer-term consequences. However, as a short-term thing, if you make the right choice you get points for your supported characters (none of us did this time, the right choice was actually option 2).
Also, Gil being taken out by some external force with ease what? Even Sakura got temporarily butchered by Gil, and only took him out because he UNDERESTIMATED IT. Here, Gil gets knocked unconscious from some unknown force, and people are expected to go "well that could just as easily happen to anyone in the room"? It should never be this easy to take out the guy that could take being bathed in all the world's evil and think that that was Tuesday.
Well, that part I don't know anything about, but I think that it is ludicrous to judge the story on that basis without giving him any chance to explain it. Not everything in the story has to make perfect sense from the very beginning, and the impression I get is that the whole thing is meant to be somewhat of a mystery.
Well, if it was any type of mental assault it would fail terribly against Gil for reasons stated above. Unless this is a Type level being I have no idea how it could even try to go for a mental attack. Even then it shouldn't be an instant KO. He is the King after all.
I think it is unfair to assume that Lantz has no way to explain it two chapters into the story. Gil might be strong, but he's not invincible.
There is also the problem that any entity that did that should be able to take out the entire cast with minimal effort. If it simply wants entertainment then the story could never end because with a thought it could annihilate the whole cast so they would need to do what he says.
Well, the fact that they just kidnapped the entire cast and intend to force them into some sort of survival game does kind-of imply that they are doing it for some reason aside from "to kill everyone". But, I think that is unavoidable given the basic premise of the game (which is everyone being kidnapped and forced to fight for their survival).
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Sorry if it got a little loud in here Alice. I'll try to be more quiet.
Nah, it's not too bad yet, you're fine. Since lantz discussions have a tendency to get explosive after a point though, I'm just throwing it out there early while things are still calm, mostly as a precaution.
And adding on to what Umbra said, yeah, that does seem weird. Naturally the bad guys would be strong, but as you said, knocking out Gil is a bit much. If they took advantage of the fact that he's the King of Carelessness, and he simply got taken down by the usual underestimating his opponent bit, it'd make more sense, but if they just somehow managed to sneak attack/sneak mental attack Gil, then yeah, that's stretching it a bit.
And is that really the current choices? O_O That's pretty bad, yeah.
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And is that really the current choices? O_O That's pretty bad, yeah.
I'm not sure why. FSN has plenty of choices along the lines of "should I help Sakura in the kitchen?". Not every choice has to be life-or-death....
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Eh, it's not that so much. It's like Nachos said in the DSM version of the thread/voting thread, they should be checking on Gil. Even if he is a jerk, he's still an ally, and they owe him that much. Plus getting started on figuring out what drained him, etc.
More slice of lifely choices have their time, is what I'm saying. When something big and scary like that happens though, that's not where your priorities go. It has to make sense in context of the events that just occurred.
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Perhaps, but I don't think Toshi has a particularly good opinion of Gil....
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Isn't he supposed to be compassionate and caring for all though (despite evidence to the contrary elsewhere, but we're giving him the benefit of the doubt here)?
If Toshi is fine with taking an obvious Bad Guy from the wall that was obviously there for a reason, why wouldn't he even spare the time to make sure Gil was okay? It makes Toshi just look like a jerk more than anything. You don't have to like someone to help them, after all.
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Wait, Satoshi is kind and compassionate? News to me.
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idk about you, but if a guy who literally bathes in All the Evils of the World got knocked out I'd try to wake him up immediately. Also the level of mental fortitude Gil has is ridiculous. It seems like a very underwhelming way to get rid of such a strong character.
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Wait, Satoshi is kind and compassionate? News to me.
So my characters in the RP have been lectured on. So far it seems to be mostly a case of Show, Don't Tell though.
As a general on topic thing, that's an important thing any writer should keep in mind. Show, Don't Tell. Don't tell us what a character is like and expect us to believe it, show us through their actions, unless you're intentionally trying to create dissonance. It should be one of the very first things a writer learns aside from proper grammar and spelling.
And @Umbra, yeah, it is rather odd. Again, it would have made more sense to play on Gil's established weakness than his mental fortitude.
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I dislike when fanfic authors include very strong characters and then they don't know what to do with them. They're too powerful for the established setting so they just get them killed. If your plot can't handle a character don't include them in your fanfic. It's even worse when they come up with some stupid excuse to get rid of them.
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Lantz has this deep hatred for Gilgamesh. He's always trying to justify how Gil is defeatable all the time by using his OC and bringing more convoluted abilities on him.
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Gil is pretty much unbeatable though. Only Shirou can beat him because of his inability to take a kid copying his swords seriously. Archer has a chance. He's better than Shirou but Gil takes him a bit more seriously if I remember right. You can't really blame Gil though. It's like fighting against a level 1 bunny with your level 1000 omega fighter who has so much stuff you just throw your inventory at things now. Then he pops out special ability and you go WTF. Then you get killed.
Edit: Really though. Anything that can overpower Gil will break my SoD instantly unless it's a Type.
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Gil has op sword though. How do world destroying aliens handle EA?
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Reducing him to dust before he even drew Ea. They're really OP. Unless he took out Ea in the beginning and tried to destroy it on first sight he would get reduced to a smear in seconds.
Edit: But they would probably die if he managed to hit them.
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Ea is around the level of Slash Emperor. It's quite poetic that the First Hero and a warrior from Land of Steel are equal in firepower.
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So.... Gil and Ado Eden are equal in a sense? Huh.
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Gil's armor could also tank world destroying beings. Its just that types aren't from earth. They're even made ether.
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Querty, modify a post is a thing. Double posts should not become a habit.
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Gil's armor could also tank world destroying beings. Its just that types aren't from earth. They're even made ether.
Excalibur is not world destroying Qwerty. Gil's armor didn't protect him from that so it won't protect him from Types.
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Sry for double quote. I'm on phone, so its rather inconvenient.
Types don't destroy the world in one blow either. Besides, Excalibur isn't called the strongest holy sword for nothing. That sword is also ridiculously strong. Its just overshadowed by EA.
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Gil's armour is pretty good, but it's not going to protect him from most Noble Phantasms. It's just really hard to break through using a normal weapon.
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Sry for double quote. I'm on phone, so its rather inconvenient.
Types don't destroy the world in one blow either. Besides, Excalibur isn't called the strongest holy sword for nothing. That sword is also ridiculously strong. Its just overshadowed by EA.
Notes powerlevels completely overshadow everything else. Types probably eat Excalibur for breakfast. They have ridiculous amounts of firepower. The only real defining trait for them is the ability to wipe out all life on the planet. ORT can literally wipe out all of humanity in like 5 minutes.
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Because not tanking the strongest holy sword point blank means you obviously can't tank NPs. That's like saying something isn't waterproof because they can't survive the deepest depths of the ocean.
I don't know just how durable the armor is, but I read that his armor used to tank high level divine beings. I'd bring evidence, but I'm on a phone.
As for Mercury, I don't think he'd destroy the world in 5 minutes. I seem to be underestimating types, and you seem to be underestimating Excalibur. Why don't we just check this out first before deciding who's right?
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Types wreck divine beings. They are the supreme existences of their planets. All life means Divine Spirits as well. They'll turn everything to smears on the ground.
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Like how Zelretch got stomped by Crimson Moon?
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Zeltretch is an anomaly. I don't think we even know how he exactly beat CM. However we also know that the other Types won't be playing around. They'll go for the insta kill. Unless Gil is 100% serious from the start he doesn't have a chance.
Edit: So unless he's stopped being arrogant and took them on with an Ea blast from the start he's done. Zeltretch was probably cautious as fuck when preparing to fight CM. Do you really think Gil will go straight for the kill?
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I'm not saying that Excalibur can own types. I'm saying that one of the strongest NPs should be able to deal damage to them. Not all of them are like Mercury.
And that was what I was saying about Gil. He's got a chance to kill a Type just as much as they do him. He who strikes first wins. He isn't stupid enough to underestimate things like types.
Also, I'm on a phone and running out of batteries. Give me a moment.
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Yes. I suppose it does matter on who strikes first. If he pulls Ea off in the beginning he would kill it.
Edit: Such a civil discussion.
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Is that sarcasm I hear?
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You're imagining things. I'm only sarcastic when I begin to italicize. It's either sarcasm or emphasis. Context should be able to tell you which.
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Ah. Its hard to see sarcasm in just words. Still, I prefer civil conversations, so that's nice to hear.
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It is preferable. Getting angry at someone over the internet is a worthless act.
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Didn't knock him out, collapse is not the same thing. There is a reason for everyone getting tweaked, and he respects Gil Alice, checking on Gilgamesh is the same as calling the king a pussy.
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Not checking up on someone means you give zero shit about them, not respect them. Besides, didn't you say that Gil isn't invincible? Seeing a guy as strong as him collapsing from some unknown force isn't something to take lightly.
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Qwerty you aren't thinking like Gil
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And having people not give a shit about me is respect to me? Gil also likes manners and humbleness from people. Saying you've got Satoshi going "you're the king of heroes, ur fine" would probably piss him off.
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Except that you're forgetting his ego Qwerty
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Let's face it, Gilgamesh has such high standards by which he judges people as the King of Kings and Heroes he is that I don't believe most people in the room would meet his standard.
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Can you show me that his ego is like that? Saying that helping him would make him look like a pussy sounds stupid. Satoshi sounds kind of like a jerk if he thinks that helping Gil would make him look like that.
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No Qwerty, that is not what I said
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That Satoshi apparently respects Gil by not checking up on him? That doing so would be like calling Gil a pussy? If its an attack that almost downs the both of them, they shouldn't be thinking about things like that. Gil would also be very concerned about the situation as this is something that he not only didn't expect, but has no answer for.
Lantz, that isn't the big issue here. One of the issues with this fic so far is that nobody but the "bad guys" have said ANYTHING in this fic, with only Satoshi's monologues being the closest to hearing anybody else's voice. You gotta start having some conversations in this fic, and actually involve everybody. I know that thats not easy to do, but you put in all those characters; they need to act or they're just cardboard cut outs.
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Even Gray has given up on improving lantzblades' writing, as he told me it personally. >_>
One cannot excuse everything by keeping posting about "context" or "the devil's in the details", people will just keep treating somebody answering like that less and less seriously. Not really listening or not acknowledging legitimate hints and complaints does not lead anywhere. No work is flawless, after all.
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Apparently, you need to vote for a girl to make your vote count, but its now closed. How many people's votes actually counted this time? Well, it doesn't matter since only punching Gil in the face was chosen.
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Don't bother, there is nothing logical about lantz and his fics.
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Apparently, you need to vote for a girl to make your vote count, but its now closed. How many people's votes actually counted this time? Well, it doesn't matter since only punching Gil in the face was chosen.
Qwerty, just because Lantz threw you out of his thread, it doesn't mean you have to turn this into a surrogate discussion thread.
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At this rate lantz will throw away everyone except you because adressing any flaws (which are numerous) of his stories is unacceptable.
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I don't care, this is still not a thread for discussing details of Lantz's fic.
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Yeah, and we should wait for the beta because nobody knows any 'context'. Hopes it comes out before Tsukihime Remake.
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To be fair, that one is entirely my fault. Lantz sent me the first chapter ages ago, and I think he's written a few more beyond that.
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Okay, we'll be waiting patiently.
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...okay, seriously, what the hell did I miss?
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^Something, something, Satoshi. Well, not everything, bu itt always ultimately goes back to Satoshi. Satoshi is his Origin and Element.
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I'm apparently not allowed to discuss what happened in Lantz's fic. I mean, I'm not saying anything rude now am I? I'm just discussing about what actually happened, and am now seeing how you guys feel about what happened.
Besides, this is the place where we can discuss about fics right? I haven't slandered the fic this time or anything.
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Also, at least Lantz has written more on the setting and is expanding the length of the story. However, the plot still needs to keep advancing. Slice of Life won't last forever. He needs to be careful about the pacing for the future of his fic.
Also, I dislike how characters discuss a terrible issue, but doesn't do anything about it. Its like saying that they feel sorry for war orphans, but give small change and move on. Do those heroes try anything to help on a smaller scale? Even if that big issue they're working on gets resolved, the world goes back to what it was eventually and no real positive changes happens. I wanna see the hero do a big positive change for a big issue the real world can relate to. If there is a story out there with a subplot like that, can anyone tell me about it?
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No, this is not a place for discussing random fics because you were kicked out of the fic thread.
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Fine, so maybe I wasn't discussing about annoying things in fanfiction a moment ago. Is it wrong all of a sudden to mention this fact? Lantz won't let me ask how Superman's experience is correlated to Satoshi's experience on BL, now you won't let me discuss about his decision on the other page? Why is it so wrong to discuss such small things on a page about fanfiction? Whatever, I'm not discussing about his fic at the moment. I'm talking about something that annoys me in anime.
Now, I'll talk about how fanfiction writers following other fanfiction writers annoy me because they cling to another fanfiction writer's logics and rules and think they apply to that universe. Happy? This topic isn't about Lantz's fanfiction.
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There is only one Canon and food is its Prophet.
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Just a friendly reminder.
Let's avoid discussion about lantz's fics. This isn't a thread to criticize them, or point out flaws and errors in them. If you were kicked out of the respective threads for that, well, too bad. But don't bring that into other threads and start cluttering them with more of it. And yes, failure to comply is punishable by warning.
Have a good day. :)
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Wait, why does Lantz get special treatment. I get he's 'special' but I don't think he's THAT special.
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My statement was general.
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Magos you're a fucking machine.
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Magos you're a fucking machine.
I'm a techpriest, not a machine you heretical ignoramus. The Omnissiah does not condone thinking machines.
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Wait, why does Lantz get special treatment. I get he's 'special' but I don't think he's THAT special.
No, no, it's not special treatment. It's called "being tired of pointless arguing cluttering the threads".
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technopriests are awesome. Also, my discussion about Lantz's fic is very brief and done with.
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Same here, KAIZA, same here.
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I did talk about something related to this thread earlier, but it didn't catch on Xam. Sry.
Also, KAIZA discussing about the warning about not discussing Lantz's fic in this thread is still discussing Lantz's fic in this thread. Are we still talking about what annoys us in fanfiction or what?
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qwerty, yes, we are.
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Seriously, the attention lantzblades gets to due being too controversial should be diverted to less controversial fic writers who need feedback more, especially those who debut as fic writers. That is all.
Now proceed to other stuff.
Not necessarily fanfiction, but scalie and furry versions of Nasuverse characters creep me out.
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Wait, why does Lantz get special treatment. I get he's 'special' but I don't think he's THAT special.
Arch, that statement goes for all fics, really. This isn't a thread for discussing specific people's work. It's fine mentioning it or whatever, but Qwerty was turning this into a thread for discussing Lantz's work specifically.
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qwerty, yes, we are.
If we are, then lets keep talking. I rarely see you Xam, what's up?
As for fanfictions, it would be nice if the fans of those fics weren't so bad sometimes. They say some of the dumbest things and treat it like as if they did something unique or some bullshit like that. "OH MAN, SHIROU IS SO DUMB. I WISH YOUR AWESOME OC KILLED HIM AND TOOK HIS PLACE! HE'D CERTAINLY MAKE A HAREM AND MAKE A HAPPY ENDING!"
I already said, we're dropping it. Can you stop bringing it up now? I'm following the rules already Cherry.
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Also, sane Berserker. Somebody at BL came up with a sane Berserker idea for fic, and I went lolwut. Sane Berserker is not a Berserker by default.
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Also, KAIZA discussing about the warning about not discussing Lantz's fic in this thread is still discussing Lantz's fic in this thread. Are we still talking about what annoys us in fanfiction or what?
Ha ha, very funny. Don't try me.
Now, let's keep this on topic.
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Doing alright, qwerty, quite alright at that. Currently helping some others with a fic for FFN (not Nasu-related) of my own volition... I just like helping people.
My current annoyances with fanfics? It just came today, but someone put the wrong number on his chapter count earlier this week, giving the impression he had two more chapters than he really did. Of course, because I looked at it, I could tell him he goofed.
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Also, sane Berserker. Somebody at BL came up with a sane Berserker idea for fic, and I went lolwut. Sane Berserker is not a Berserker by default.
I don't see any reason why you couldn't have a sane Berserker. Mad Enhancement can be turned off.
It defeats the point of using the class, of course, which is why there is generally no reason to do it, but I can see reasons why you would want to do it in a fanfic, especially Zero fanfics.
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Well, the idea of the Berserker class is to strengthen weak servants by making them go insane. You didn't see Lancelot or Heracles making civil discussion. Why would Kariya or Illya do anything differently concerning ME?
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Well, someone wrote a fic where Kariya didn't have Lancelot as Berserker, if anyone is curious about that.
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Well, the idea of the Berserker class is to strengthen weak servants by making them go insane. You didn't see Lancelot or Heracles making civil discussion. Why would Kariya or Illya do anything differently concerning ME?
Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
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Uh, Cherry, the premise of the fic I mentioned was where Kariya didn't get a Berserker because he hates Zouken's guts... and Kiritsugu proceeds to kill Zouken as a means of getting an alliance with Kariya.
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Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
Well that is true, but it isn't the point. This is about summoning a sane Berserker. If Kariya only participates to save Sakura then Zouken will simply have him summon a Berserker to ensure his own survival(As you said a sane servant could probably just reduce Zouken to dust). This means that the Berserker will be under ME. There is no reason for Kariya not to and several for why he should.
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Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
Well that is true, but it isn't the point. This is about summoning a sane Berserker. If Kariya only participates to save Sakura then Zouken will simply have him summon a Berserker to ensure his own survival(As you said a sane servant could probably just reduce Zouken to dust). This means that the Berserker will be under ME. There is no reason for Kariya not to and several for why he should.
Well, for Kariya perhaps, but for a fanfic writer there are plenty of reasons to want it to happen that way, because otherwise it's very difficult to write a story based around Kariya that isn't basically the same as Zero. So, it is not surprising that they find excuses for it.
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Well, the idea of the Berserker class is to strengthen weak servants by making them go insane. You didn't see Lancelot or Heracles making civil discussion. Why would Kariya or Illya do anything differently concerning ME?
Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
Actually, it's because really, Zouken gives no shits about Kariya, and probably would have just iced him and taken the seals if he came close to winning, to get that wish for himself.
As a consequence, Sakura WOULD get to go free, but only because Zouken would be pimpin' out on his wish and not need her anymore.
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So if the Grail wasn't corrupted and Zouken wished for immortality would it rejuvenate his soul and make it stop rotting? Or would it freeze his soul in the state it was at the wish so he could be half rotted old man forever?
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Well, the idea of the Berserker class is to strengthen weak servants by making them go insane. You didn't see Lancelot or Heracles making civil discussion. Why would Kariya or Illya do anything differently concerning ME?
Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
Actually, it's because really, Zouken gives no shits about Kariya, and probably would have just iced him and taken the seals if he came close to winning, to get that wish for himself.
Not giving a shit about Kariya would imply that he would just let Kariya do what he likes, though, it doesn't cause him to suggest summoning a Berserker. However, whilst it is unlikely, a sane servant could certainly possess something that could allow Kariya to kill Zouken and save Sakura, so Zouken is just safer if he avoid that possibility.
As a consequence, Sakura WOULD get to go free, but only because Zouken would be pimpin' out on his wish and not need her anymore.
Yeah, most likely. Assuming there was still a world left....
So if the Grail wasn't corrupted and Zouken wished for immortality would it rejuvenate his soul and make it stop rotting? Or would it freeze his soul in the state it was at the wish so he could be half rotted old man forever?
Probably the first, but it depends a bit on what exactly Zouken asks for as well.
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Well, the idea of the Berserker class is to strengthen weak servants by making them go insane. You didn't see Lancelot or Heracles making civil discussion. Why would Kariya or Illya do anything differently concerning ME?
Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
Actually, it's because really, Zouken gives no shits about Kariya, and probably would have just iced him and taken the seals if he came close to winning, to get that wish for himself.
As a consequence, Sakura WOULD get to go free, but only because Zouken would be pimpin' out on his wish and not need her anymore.
And then the world will end.
As for mad enhancement, it is used to make weak servants strong but the cases where we do see berserkers break the rules by being strong heroes in the first place. In fact, putting them in the berserker class weakens them since they can't use their main NPs or make rational decisions. Hercules was remembered for being a cunning individual and his NP is a powerful anti-dragon NP and Lu Bu could use all of his NP's forms if not in ME. Lancelot is an odd case in which he uses his other abilities to get the power boost with little to no concequence, but he uses the mad enhancement to be stronger in physical stats to Saber.
I'd honestly like to see more ideas with berserker servants making use of mad enhancement and doing something creative with it like with Lancelot. At least he wasn't crippled by using the damn skill. As for Zouken, he told Kariya to use the berserker class to compensate for Kariya being a weak master. If he did summon a servant in a different class, that servant would be a lot weaker then it would normally be.
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Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
Only person present who could kill Zouken or remove worms was Kotomine Kirei. Yeah...
And Lancelot summoned as non-Berserker would probably die in the first battle against Gilgamesh since without the boost he cannot last as long. Friggin' Saber can only deflect one swordrain in Fate, and non-Berserker Lancelot is weaker than that.
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Pretension, that's what annoys me.
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Someone claiming something? Or someone showing off? How do you even do that in a fanfic?
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Well, Kariya having a sane servant would be a major advantage to him, in reality, because his best chance of saving Sakura is to summon a servant who can kill Zouken or remove the worms from her somehow. I suspect that has a lot to do with why Zouken told him to use the Berserker class in the first place....
Only person present who could kill Zouken or remove worms was Kotomine Kirei. Yeah...
Sure, but I would be astounded if there is not a servant anywhere in mythology who is capable of killing him or deworming Sakura.
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They would also need to be famous for going into a rage. So your best bet would be to summon a Hindu HS. They can probably solve every problem in existence.
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Before Kariya would put a finger on Zouken he would get devoured from inside. And there is also the fact Kariya is not the brightest brick in the shed given his poor communications skills.
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Kariya doesn't have to do anything, though, it's the servant who would do it. Killing Kariya wouldn't immediately kill the servant.
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Excuse me, but, I was informed that there was favoritism ITT. What seems to be the matter?
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Deworming Sakura isn't too easy though....
I mean killing Zouken physically is easy for a servant, but saving Sakura from the worms isn't.
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You can kill Kariya through worms discreetly enough the Servant would not realize.
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No Umbra it's a matter of ideological pretension, people who think one way so much so they choose to act with a total disregard for reason and refuse to accept that others have the right to believe differently
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Sounds familiar.
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Deworming Sakura isn't too easy though....
I mean killing Zouken physically is easy for a servant, but saving Sakura from the worms isn't.
If they can manage to actually kill Zouken, then deworming Sakura isn't so much of an issue, and can be done later (I'm sure there is a magical healer somewhere who is capable of doing it). Without Zouken, there isn't anyone to control them and, therefore, her.
Also, removing the worms at the time of Zero should be easier, because they've had less time to become intertwined with her body.
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Still changed by the worms, hue.
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Well, yeah, but there's not much that can be done about that.
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Contacts and dye are a thing.
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...y'know, that solution is probably so obvious, we didn't bother to think it for a long time!
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Simplest solution often evades attention.
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...y'know, that solution is probably so obvious, we didn't bother to think it for a long time!
Well, I think it's more that Sakura fans are used to her having purple hair and eyes, and thus see no particular reason to be bothered to change that. The important thing is getting her free of Zouken, her hair and eye colour doesn't really matter.
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Hrm... that poses a huge problem in and of itself. I mean, yeah, I get that the fans are used to that appearance. However, what happens if someone goes through such elaborate measures to make Sakura look like her normal (before Zouken) self, and everyone thinks that that's how to restore her appearance?
Just food for thought.
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I'm not sure what you mean.
Still, I think actually physically fixing the problem is better than just using contacts and hair dye. Contact lenses have to be put in and taken out, and hair dye needs to be re-applied over and over.
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Unless you can make the hair dye permanent... but, still, you have a point.
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Surely body and physical appearance is most important trait of a waifu.
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...what are you getting at?
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Surely body and physical appearance is most important trait of a waifu.
Not really, but cosmetic changes hardly matter for her personally.
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Deworming Sakura isn't too easy though....
I mean killing Zouken physically is easy for a servant, but saving Sakura from the worms isn't.
If they can manage to actually kill Zouken, then deworming Sakura isn't so much of an issue, and can be done later (I'm sure there is a magical healer somewhere who is capable of doing it). Without Zouken, there isn't anyone to control them and, therefore, her.
Also, removing the worms at the time of Zero should be easier, because they've had less time to become intertwined with her body.
True dat about the Zero part. However, without the worms in her body for 10 years, she won't have the sad back story that many fans of hers remember her for. They'll say "oh, Sakura would have been amazing if she only had the worms in her body. That way, she would have this totally terrible back story that we can feel sympathy for." Seriously though, what will she do in the 10 years of being free of Zouken? Her father all but gave her away so that she could be the successor of another family. He might just go and do that again, saying "oh, its all for the greater good. Sakura can learn magic from another family and be their ace!" There's a reason why he did that in the first place. If Zouken's place mysteriously vanishes and Sakura comes back, he might think that a wild accident occurred (Grail war) and do the same thing again, hoping it will be more successful.
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Posting a different version of the same story, and seperate fic and discussion threads.
That shit just clutters up the forum.
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Alright, since people can't seem to understand this:
No more posting complaints about lantz, his fics or his threads in here. There's enough of it as is, I don't want any more of it. And no, just because you don't use his name directly, it doesn't mean it's not obvious who you're referring to.
Now, can we please go back to actual discussion?
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...one little nitpick, KAIZA.
Instead of "it doesn't mean it's obvious", what about "it doesn't mean it's not obvious"?
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That's what he said....
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After the edit, yes, not before.
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Oh, OK, sorry, I didn't notice that he'd edited it....
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It's fine. I guess that means people in that part of the world need to sleep?
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And we were having a nice little discussion about worms too...
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Well... here's an annoyance that I have. People taking one look at a small part of a story and commenting based on that one small part (without reading the whole damn thing to begin with) and thinking that the whole thing is trash (again, without reading the whole thing to begin with, which leads to stupid bias).
Yes, this happened to me, but, in my defense, I didn't know that Beast's Lair had a hatred for the type of story I posted then (mainly because I wanted honest critique on it... which Elf can attest to).
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Well, small parts can have just as big an impact as big ones. If I was reading a super hot lemon that suddenly went into snuff strangulation and then necrophilia for a bit at the end, it'd completely kill my boner and make me dislike the entire lemon.
Just as an example. I didn't read what you posted on BL.
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Hmm... good point.
Thankfully, the story I posted is not important now, anyway.
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Well... here's an annoyance that I have. People taking one look at a small part of a story and commenting based on that one small part (without reading the whole damn thing to begin with) and thinking that the whole thing is trash (again, without reading the whole thing to begin with, which leads to stupid bias).
Yes, this happened to me, but, in my defense, I didn't know that Beast's Lair had a hatred for the type of story I posted then (mainly because I wanted honest critique on it... which Elf can attest to).
Depends on the conditions, but if it's the first chapter that is valid. Unlike books, we are not guaranteed that an editor and publisher has looked at the content and seen it isn't crap ( and even if they have, there's no guarantee it isn't anyways). As such, money isn't our concern, it's time. Time is the currency and time is what we spend to look at your work. If you can't convince us a fic is good within the amount of time we're willing to spend then it obviously needs to change (give or take).
If your summary can't hook that many reader, then obviously you need a better summary. If your readers abandon before the end of the first chapter, then obviously something is wrong. Perhaps the reader and your fic's style don't align. Maybe what's in the fic drives readers away (It's hard to force a reader to read what they aren't interested in. I'm not much for gooey twoo wuv fics and you'll be hard pressed to push me that way) Or, it could be something more literary that's the issue. It's up to you and your editor to figure out that issue. Sometimes it's the fic and sometimes it's the reader "market".
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Well, sure, abandoning the fic because it doesn't keep your interest makes sense, but assuming the whole thing is crap and commenting accordingly because of a small section doesn't. In that case, the most you can reasonably say is "the start didn't interest me enough to keep reading, and here's why".
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Well, in all honesty, it was a snuff lemon for Pokegirls... that had a lot to do with it.
Anyway, not much I can say right now, even as an annoyance in fanfiction.
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If a first chapter is really bad, it's safe to assume a writer may not improve much within the story.
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Well, in all honesty, it was a snuff lemon for Pokegirls... that had a lot to do with it.
Anyway, not much I can say right now, even as an annoyance in fanfiction.
Yeah, I can see why a snuff lemon for a fandom that most people in BL have no interest in might get somewhat negative reactions....
If a first chapter is really bad, it's safe to assume a writer may not improve much within the story.
Well, it depends what your complaint is. If you're bothered by writing quality or similar, then yes. If the issue is the plot, then you might be missing something that will be explained later on. That doesn't mean you have to keep reading, just that you shouldn't assume that the rest is going to be bad.
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If a first chapter is really bad, it's safe to assume a writer may not improve much within the story.
Sometimes, people hope it can improve. Everybody hopes a fic does that if its premise is exciting.
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...sheesh. How long have I been away from this thread?
Anyway, an annoyance I have is people dissing OCs, when they could very well help improve the canon characters.
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Self insert Sue ocs. Fucking hate those.
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I never said what sort of OCs they were... at all.
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Original characters are always going to be under the sword of Damocles no matter who they are. Unless they are just background characters they'll be attacked by someone in the fandom. Strangely I find the only place original characters get fair due is in superhero books (ironic considering how tightly wound CB fans are in general) the thing that annoys me most is the attitude of hate new stuff is the default in fan fiction. If people would give stories and characters proper chances in fan fiction I think the stigma around fan fiction would disappear.
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Well, I think the issue is two-fold. Firstly, fanfic is almost by definition generally (although not always) less well-written than the original story is. After all, the original story is something that someone managed to get people to buy in reasonably large quantities, whereas fanfic is often written by 13-year-olds with no concept of how to write a story. As a result, OCs also tend to be less good characters than the characters they're placed next to, and thus that sticks out. It's not true of all OCs, of course, but it's true of enough that they get a stigma attached to them.
Secondly, people who are reading a fanfic are doing so because they are interested in the original story, which means the characters, settings etc. OCs aren't part of that, which means they lack the existing connection with the readers that the canon characters have and, therefore, the author has to work harder to get people to be interested in them, and may not be able to do so at all for certain people (I'm not going to be interested in an OC-only story unless the OC happens to have a connection to Sakura, and even then I'd be wary).
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I don't mind OCs, just ones that are Power-trip Mary Sue Author-insert OCs. I won't like a badly written oc, but I won't like a badly done canon character either.
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Unfortunately your attitude leads to the stagnation of fan fiction Mike. If the world never grows the characters become stunted or otherwise parrot the original work. A lot of people disregard fan fiction because fans don't accept change or rail against any kind of addition or theoretical /alternative explanation, characterization and so on, thus making it a pain to produce anything that isn't a factory pressed disappointment to a would be fandom author.
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I'm not making a judgement on whether it's a good or bad thing, I'm giving an explanation of why I think it's the case that OCs are often frowned-upon. Personally, I have no issue with OCs in stories. However, I am primarily reading them for the characters rather than the setting, so if the canon characters don't show up much or at-all I probably won't be overly bothered about the story.
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Also OCs are often poorly written, so people often disregard them.
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Er... you misspelled "poorly". That's something I find annoying in fanfiction (misspellings).
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An addition on the OC thing: When they're paired with canon characters. That's never good, ever.
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Actually, I don't agree. For a story like FSN or Tsukihime, where there are many heroines and only one significant male character, it's ridiculous to assume that everyone but the heroine whose route it is will end up being single for the rest of their life. They're going to get into other relationships, and sometimes those relationships are important to the story. Of course, it can be done very badly indeed, but it doesn't have to be.
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Well I've never, ever, seen it done well.
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I think Nerroth did a reasonably good job of it in his fics (they're in the fanfic board if you want to check them out), and I have an idea for an OC that would be paired with Sakura post-UBW. I think it can be done fine as long as the pairing either makes sense within the context of the story, or else the OC is a side-character who is mostly there just to fill out the world a bit.
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OCs can work if done well imo. There was a Love Hina fanfiction I read a while back with an OC as one of the main characters, and he felt good to read. What an OC needs to do is not try to surpass the main cast, but be able to work with them and the world they are in. If the canon cast can work with the OC and not just the other way around, then that's a good thing.
Also, limits. OCs need limits or people will feel they are overpowered and are Mary Sues. I don't mean simple limits like how a female mary sue is only at her strongest for three minutes in a fight or can only use her power 10 times in her life or something like that, but something that prevents her/him from being the most powerful being in existence. Sometimes a weakness that a weaker character/characters can take advantage of in a fight to overcome them, or a weakness in they're personality that isn't easily overcome.
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What would be your stance then to all OC fanfiction? Where the only thing present is the lore, mechanics, and writing?
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Well, if someone likes the lore enough to want to write a story based around it with OCs, then IMO that is fine, but it doesn't interest me at all, to be honest.
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What would be your stance then to all OC fanfiction? Where the only thing present is the lore, mechanics, and writing?
If it's well written fuck yeah.
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I am annoyed and saddened by the lack of Archer/EMIYA centric lemons.
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Yeah, I feel the same about Sakura-centric ones. They're pretty rare.
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Yeah, I feel the same about Sakura-centric ones. They're pretty rare.
There are a lot of Sakura related doujins though.
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Not fanfics. And kotori is a stain.
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Yeah, I feel the same about Sakura-centric ones. They're pretty rare.
There are a lot of Sakura related doujins though.
Not all that many, especially not translated ones.
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Trip Spider's done a bunch though, and several of them are translated.
The art's decent and it's always fluffy, happy consensual sex.
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Trip Spider's done a bunch though, and several of them are translated.
True, but that's about it.
The art's decent and it's always fluffy, happy consensual sex.
Lol, but when it comes to porn, I'm not really after "fluffy, happy consensual sex".
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@Elf, CL
working to fix that, need betaing time though. Seriously mountains of both if I could get mike to have time or others added to the cause.
I'm annoyed at the lack of discussion about fanfics in general. It's all read and done, no consideration of the little things.
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@Elf, CL
working to fix that, need betaing time though. Seriously mountains of both if I could get mike to have time or others added to the cause.
Really? I don't recall you mentioning all that much stuff. One or two things that I'm working on prequels to, but not that much you're close to finishing.
I'm annoyed at the lack of discussion about fanfics in general. It's all read and done, no consideration of the little things.
What do you mean?
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Because I haven't been able to write in the last few weeks because of moving, hordes of family and company coming over, not to mention my other grandma passing away. Otherwise I'd be forty fics ahead most of which star Archer, Sakura, Rider and Akiha to some extent.
I mean that people skim fics and bitch about what they don't like or otherwise praise it once and keep silent. There's no actual discussion.
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Because I haven't been able to write in the last few weeks because of moving, hordes of family and company coming over, not to mention my other grandma passing away. Otherwise I'd be forty fics ahead most of which star Archer, Sakura, Rider and Akiha to some extent.
Hmm, I see.
Which fics do you mean? You've not mentioned most of these to me....
I mean that people skim fics and bitch about what they don't like or otherwise praise it once and keep silent. There's no actual discussion.
Well, honestly, there's rarely all that much to discuss in detail. Also, people are lazy, so unless they're really invested in it, they likely won't bother going into detailed discussions.
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A ton, I've mentioned some to you but not most. Again because of the issue of time.
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Not fanfics. And kotori is a stain.
Kotori?
I'm scared to ask.
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Guys who think Nasuverse should operate according to "myths", but in their fanfiction they rape both Nasu canon and myths they are supposed to emulate self-admitedly.
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Kat, *cough*, please don't attempt to bait so obviously.
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Decent fics that end abruptly in the middle. :/
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Yeah, I hate it when fics I like stop halfway through, or the author just stops updating them.