Author Topic: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page  (Read 175130 times)

KAIZA

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 06:23:51 PM »
I don't think they have much of a choice in the matter. Sakura's sister is close to being a true magus and they have a magical familiar. They can't hide magic from their kids for any significant period, and Sakura isn't the sort of person to stop them doing something they want to do. Plus, they do need to be able to defend theirselves sometimes, and Sakura would rather give them the tools to do so.

Not all of Sakura's kids are mages, though, one of them is living a normal life. Ultimately it is their choice. But, Sakura and Shirou would want them to be able to make that choice for theirselves, and to be honest to them about their abilities.

However, they are certainly not normal magi. They would be closer to what Shirou is pre-FSN. A magic user, without all the Association bullshit. That isn't something which really causes them any harm, it's not fundamentally any different from learning a martial art.
Even if that's the case, there's no point in seriously training them. They don't really need magic to defend themselves normally, and if it's something that would requiere magic (which I doubt, since they managed six months without incident), there's Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin for that. Sure, the can learn, but not to that extent, especially at a young age.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 06:54:48 PM »
Even if that's the case, there's no point in seriously training them. They don't really need magic to defend themselves normally, and if it's something that would requiere magic (which I doubt, since they managed six months without incident), there's Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin for that. Sure, the can learn, but not to that extent, especially at a young age.

Where did you get the idea they were training "seriously" from? It's not like Rin was in canon, but canonically Shirou picked up how to do tracing from basically nowhere in about two weeks, and he's not even that good a magus. They take it as seriously as Shirou or Sakura would take archery in canon. It's not their entire life, it's just part of it. They're not forced into spending every waking moment living as a magus, but nor are they forced to ignore the power they possess.

However, not teaching them to make full use of the abilities they have would be downright negligent parenting. And, regardless of what you say, Sakura and Shirou will not always be there to protect them, especially not as adults. A good parent teaches their kids to be able to fend for theirselves.

Personally, I don't think Kiyoshi is that competent. He's just somewhat like Shirou would have been if he'd had a teacher who didn't half-ass it. He's specialised in one thing and good at that one thing, but not particularly great at anything else.

KAIZA

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 07:13:55 PM »
Where did you get the idea they were training "seriously" from? It's not like Rin was in canon, but canonically Shirou picked up how to do tracing from basically nowhere in about two weeks, and he's not even that good a magus. They take it as seriously as Shirou or Sakura would take archery in canon. It's not their entire life, it's just part of it. They're not forced into spending every waking moment living as a magus, but nor are they forced to ignore the power they possess.

However, not teaching them to make full use of the abilities they have would be downright negligent parenting. And, regardless of what you say, Sakura and Shirou will not always be there to protect them, especially not as adults. A good parent teaches their kids to be able to fend for theirselves.

Personally, I don't think Kiyoshi is that competent. He's just somewhat like Shirou would have been if he'd had a teacher who didn't half-ass it. He's specialised in one thing and good at that one thing, but not particularly great at anything else.
>_> Didn't Shirou obtain Tracing from training with Rin/Archer's memories? Before that all his projections were hollow.
Anyhow, I don't argue about his skills or potential. It's just...
I think 11 is young for his skill level to be frank
This. Especially if his training was more lax than, say, Rin's (the little time with Tokiomi is still more than what Shirou got)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:19:46 PM by KAIZA »

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 08:19:34 PM »
Where did you get the idea they were training "seriously" from? It's not like Rin was in canon, but canonically Shirou picked up how to do tracing from basically nowhere in about two weeks, and he's not even that good a magus. They take it as seriously as Shirou or Sakura would take archery in canon. It's not their entire life, it's just part of it. They're not forced into spending every waking moment living as a magus, but nor are they forced to ignore the power they possess.

However, not teaching them to make full use of the abilities they have would be downright negligent parenting. And, regardless of what you say, Sakura and Shirou will not always be there to protect them, especially not as adults. A good parent teaches their kids to be able to fend for theirselves.

Personally, I don't think Kiyoshi is that competent. He's just somewhat like Shirou would have been if he'd had a teacher who didn't half-ass it. He's specialised in one thing and good at that one thing, but not particularly great at anything else.
>_> Didn't Shirou obtain Tracing from training with Rin/Archer's memories? Before that all his projections were hollow.

He got UBW from that, yeah, but I'm not sure how much of what he did in Fate came from Archer.

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Anyhow, I don't argue about his skills or potential. It's just...
I think 11 is young for his skill level to be frank
This. Especially if his training was more lax than, say, Rin's (the little time with Tokiomi is still more than what Shirou got)

The thing is, I don't see how his skill level is that high, particularly in terms of magic. He's just reasonably decent at his one thing. And, frankly, he has had more actual training at 11 than Rin had had, because he has family around to help him out. He doesn't have the same drive as she does, but he has a lot more help.

KAIZA

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 10:44:44 PM »
He got UBW from that, yeah, but I'm not sure how much of what he did in Fate came from Archer.
He trained with Rin in Fate, Archer's memories in UBW, the GARm in HF.
The thing is, I don't see how his skill level is that high, particularly in terms of magic. He's just reasonably decent at his one thing. And, frankly, he has had more actual training at 11 than Rin had had, because he has family around to help him out. He doesn't have the same drive as she does, but he has a lot more help.
Hey, it's just my opinion on it considering the setting and his age. Don't think too much on it.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 10:51:30 PM »
He got UBW from that, yeah, but I'm not sure how much of what he did in Fate came from Archer.
He trained with Rin in Fate, Archer's memories in UBW, the GARm in HF.

Yeah, and Kiyoshi will have trained with Rin, as well as with Sakura and Shirou, plus probably his big sister. If Rin can teach Shirou that much in a week, I'm sure she can manage to teach Sakura's kid in twelve years, even if he's not her primary focus and he's not a dedicated magus.

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The thing is, I don't see how his skill level is that high, particularly in terms of magic. He's just reasonably decent at his one thing. And, frankly, he has had more actual training at 11 than Rin had had, because he has family around to help him out. He doesn't have the same drive as she does, but he has a lot more help.
Hey, it's just my opinion on it considering the setting and his age. Don't think too much on it.

Well, sure, but I would like to get this right, which means actually taking stuff like this on board and trying to persuade you it is valid.

lantzblades

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2013, 02:01:44 AM »
You can't teach those skills to a little kid, practical experience is out of the question for sword fighting and magic for a majority of the kid's twelve years

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2013, 02:13:24 AM »
You can't teach those skills to a little kid, practical experience is out of the question for sword fighting and magic for a majority of the kid's twelve years

Why can't you?

You can certainly give a little kid a wooden sword to practice with, and his ability to create objects doesn't have to start with sharp swords, either....

Xamusel

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2013, 03:32:28 AM »
I think lantz was trying to say that Kiyoshi can't learn all that stuff when he has to get his motor functions brought up to a normal level first.

That is to say, by the time the kid is twelve, he'd be able to have at most half that time dedicated to his training (especially if he's not a dedicated magus).

By the way, for those of you who have read my character sheet and have knowledge on the respective franchises that I used for him, do I need to redo the sheet to be even slightly more realistic? I'm more than willing to if it turns out to be an issue.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2013, 12:29:54 PM »
I think lantz was trying to say that Kiyoshi can't learn all that stuff when he has to get his motor functions brought up to a normal level first.

I don't see why that's true, really. Very young kids can still learn things like Kendo, and the magic is something he can learn from pretty young.

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That is to say, by the time the kid is twelve, he'd be able to have at most half that time dedicated to his training (especially if he's not a dedicated magus).

What?

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By the way, for those of you who have read my character sheet and have knowledge on the respective franchises that I used for him, do I need to redo the sheet to be even slightly more realistic? I'm more than willing to if it turns out to be an issue.

Unfortunately, I don't think I have enough knowledge to answer this....

lantzblades

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2013, 02:58:38 PM »
At the youngest he could start practical training at seven and then only in kendo because martial arts training would fuck his body up. Magic can back fire badly and teaching a five year old practical magic is a bad idea in concept because they could burn the house down by sheer accident or though a thought of I can control it being over confidence.

what this means is that at the absolute most the kid here would be the equal to someone with about two years experience in the five years of possible learning.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2013, 03:52:39 PM »
Rin was learning magic at five, and Sakura at that age was being raped by penis worms. I don't see him learning magic at five as implausible. Further, if you don't teach him, it means you have to lie to him about the nature of your family (which I don't think Shirou would like one bit), and you also risk him working it out for himself, which is far worse. Plus, he has very good teachers who have his well-being as their upmost concern. You're possibly right about the martial arts, though, although I remember seeing kids of eight or so doing it.

But, even so, I never said he was amazingly good. He can defend himself, but he's not particularly strong.

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2013, 06:19:02 AM »
By the way, for those of you who have read my character sheet and have knowledge on the respective franchises that I used for him, do I need to redo the sheet to be even slightly more realistic? I'm more than willing to if it turns out to be an issue.

The one thing I can see being a problem Xam is that he's too . . . Stuish.  Guy's a dimension hopping Harry Potter who's collecting powers from other realities. 

As for Mike, kid's twelve.  I can see him having some talent and training, but he's also the son of two parents who probably wouldn't shovel Magecraft down his throat.  With how you're describing him, it's almost like he's Rin's kid that Rin has been pushing kind of hard.

His personality and stuff seems fine, and I like the idea that he has a Shadow pet that Sakura made for him.  Maybe just tone him down powerlevel wise a little.  I'm pretty sure that Sakura and Shirou would want their kids to be well kids instead going intensive magus training.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 06:22:02 AM by Elf »

Alice

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2013, 12:05:04 PM »
I'll add my two cents as well. I generally agree with Elf on a lot of this.

Xam, I hate to be mean here but your character is... very Stuish. He may need a bit of an overhaul in order to work.

As for Shirou and Sakura's son, as Elf said, Shirou and Sakura aren't exactly going to go all gung ho on teaching their son the ins and outs of magecraft. They may teach him the basics, but he's not going to be at the same level Rin would be at the same age, and even 11 year old Rin would probably need some form of backup. An 11 year old is capable of fighting, yes, but the only way they're going to stand a chance against a competent, combat savvy adult or even a combat savy teenager on their own is if they are overpowered to begin with, or if they've had frequent, intense combat training from a very young age, something I think that's borderline for even Rin to push for. So he'd be able to do backup, but for the most part he's going to have to rely on Mom and Dad and Auntie Rider to make sure he doesn't get hurt.

...that paragraph's a mess. Hopefully you can get something halfway useful out of it. ^_^"

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Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2013, 01:53:51 PM »
As for Mike, kid's twelve.  I can see him having some talent and training, but he's also the son of two parents who probably wouldn't shovel Magecraft down his throat.  With how you're describing him, it's almost like he's Rin's kid that Rin has been pushing kind of hard.

I'm honestly not sure how that impression came across from it. I've not made him out to be particularly powerful, he's just vaguely competent and learning to be better.

As for his training, though, it's not so much they've been pushing him as it is he's been pushing himself, and they've just supported him in that.

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His personality and stuff seems fine, and I like the idea that he has a Shadow pet that Sakura made for him.  Maybe just tone him down powerlevel wise a little.

The thing is, I honestly don't see what in the profile makes him out to be particularly powerful. I already explained that the stats are in comparison to other people of the same age and not to adults.

So, what do I need to change for it?

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I'm pretty sure that Sakura and Shirou would want their kids to be well kids instead going intensive magus training.

Yeah, definitely, the well-being of their kids is their sole worry, not whether they become good magi.

As for Shirou and Sakura's son, as Elf said, Shirou and Sakura aren't exactly going to go all gung ho on teaching their son the ins and outs of magecraft. They may teach him the basics, but he's not going to be at the same level Rin would be at the same age, and even 11 year old Rin would probably need some form of backup.

Well, they wouldn't force it on him, no, but if he wants to learn they wouldn't refuse to teach him, either.

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An 11 year old is capable of fighting, yes, but the only way they're going to stand a chance against a competent, combat savvy adult or even a combat savy teenager on their own is if they are overpowered to begin with, or if they've had frequent, intense combat training from a very young age, something I think that's borderline for even Rin to push for. So he'd be able to do backup, but for the most part he's going to have to rely on Mom and Dad and Auntie Rider to make sure he doesn't get hurt.

Well, it depends. He could take on a mundane adult no problem, but I agree he's not likely to do much against most competent magi or more serious threats. He can defend himself to a certain extent, but he's definitely going to need Sakura, Shirou and Rider to protect him.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:54:55 PM by Cherry Lover »