Author Topic: How would X win in a fight against Y  (Read 8039 times)

lantzblades

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2014, 08:33:59 AM »
Chris if you can't be polite then please leave. This is not the place for it.

as for the topic. Feel free to correct me guys but legendary shields and armour are rarely (if ever since I can't recall any) made by humans and that is Gilgamesh's stipulation for having X or whatever. So I think sniping would work.

Cherry Lover

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2014, 02:05:17 PM »
Well, the standard armour that Gil wears is exceptionally strong in itself, although I think people are exaggerating it somewhat (Saber managed to kill him in Fate, after all). So, I doubt just any old attack would break it.

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2014, 05:48:18 PM »
Chris if you can't be polite then please leave. This is not the place for it.

as for the topic. Feel free to correct me guys but legendary shields and armour are rarely (if ever since I can't recall any) made by humans and that is Gilgamesh's stipulation for having X or whatever. So I think sniping would work.

Gil has every Noble Phantasm, including those of Divine nature. Thinking the opposite is the case is believing in fanon.

The reason people think he doesn't have Divine stuff is because he also has the "Root of human knowledge" (no, not THE Root), which gives him access to everything man-made (Which is why he has that FTL ship that can cross the universe in less than a second; Apparently Nasu Humans will invent that someday), and that he hates the gods. Again, yes, even if it's Divine, Gil has something with the same effect.

If it's a Noble Phantasm, Gil has something in his vault with the same effect.  Even if it's a paradox, or seemingly impossible (For example, the item is destroyed, or lost forever,

Well, the standard armour that Gil wears is exceptionally strong in itself, although I think people are exaggerating it somewhat (Saber managed to kill him in Fate, after all). So, I doubt just any old attack would break it.

Gil's armor isnt exactly exaggerated. It takes dozens of blows from B-strength Saber without a scratch (again, his armor "giving out" is a mistranslations), it increases his Magic Resistance and it gives him immunity to petrification.

And, again, literally nothing short of a point blank Excalibur (which, as we have established, EMIYA can't even project something close to) has done visible damage to it.

He most certainly did not survive Saber cutting him in half with Excalibur during the Fate finale.

Which was a point-blank A++ Noble Phantasm, something EMIYA can't even get close to emulate.

Sha Nagba Imuru is not something the canonical character has in his servant sheet in any way, so you can't really use it as a point in this argument, Chris.

Let me reiterate then: Gil displays mega-super-hyper awareness that allows him to see spells being built in someone's head and makes him able to seemingly read thoughts (Shirou guesses Gil's identity in his thoughts in Fate -> Gil immediately turns his way and acknowledges it).

And as was stated already, by a fair fight Gilgamesh should not be able to realistically lose against anyone. And no, he is not weighted down by his hubris and personal flaws in a fight as much as some people would say, but it is a fact that he has those weaknesses, and they are a significant thing to consider in the outcome of a fight against him.

And that is exactly what I'm striving for here; A fair fight between two characters (whereas the previous matchup ended with it being two characters against one). In a fair fight, EMIYA gets to use UBW unhindered and Gil isn't hampered by carelessness (You can even take Ea out of the equation if you believe that to be "unfair"). What happens? What happens with every Servant; An absolute steamroll by King Goldman.

Now can we not have Gil matchups in the future? Because this is what's gonna happen every time; Either Gil just steamrolls whatever it is, or he pulls out Item X, which you can't prove that he has a high chance of owning (IE exceeding 99.9%) and it turns out to be Opponent Y's weakness.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 05:49:26 PM by Christemo »

Cherry Lover

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2014, 06:03:35 PM »
And that is exactly what I'm striving for here; A fair fight between two characters (whereas the previous matchup ended with it being two characters against one). In a fair fight, EMIYA gets to use UBW unhindered and Gil isn't hampered by carelessness (You can even take Ea out of the equation if you believe that to be "unfair"). What happens? What happens with every Servant; An absolute steamroll by King Goldman.

Now can we not have Gil matchups in the future? Because this is what's gonna happen every time; Either Gil just steamrolls whatever it is, or he pulls out Item X, which you can't prove that he has a high chance of owning (IE exceeding 99.9%) and it turns out to be Opponent Y's weakness.

The problem is that your definition of "fair fight" isn't actually fair, because it biases the argument in favour of certain types of fighter. Someone who is really intelligent might be able to win a fight against a more powerful opponent by using their brain, and that is just as valid a strategy as anything else, yet it would be excluded by your logic. Similarly, if someone is exceptionally powerful but careless or egotistical, that could cause them to lose a fight that they should win based solely on power levels. Such victories are no less valid than any other.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 06:04:40 PM by Cherry Lover »

lantzblades

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2014, 06:03:54 PM »
This is not who wins, it's how. Fair doesn't enter into the sphere of influence.

Gilgamesh doesn't possess everything, sorry. It has to a weapon possessed by humans or armour etcetera and even then the construction can bar Gilgamesh from getting it. This is a fact, see Avalon and Excalibur. So no, I'm not buying it.

again not who would win but how, and, frankly you're being hypocritical Chris demanding we never use Gil again when your first suggestion was Satoshi versus Gilgamesh.

as for the topic. It's clear that Archer is given at least a fighting chance by the rest of us and that Chris is the only blaring out Gilgamesh is super unbeatable so I think we should move on.

Arc versus Assassin (Extra)

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2014, 06:07:50 PM »
This is not who wins, it's how. Fair doesn't enter into the sphere of influence.

Yeah, this, also. It's meant to be more about how Archer could win, not who would win a "fair" fight.

Quote
as for the topic. It's clear that Archer is given at least a fighting chance by the rest of us and that Chris is the only blaring out Gilgamesh is super unbeatable so I think we should move on.

Well, as with most fights involving Gil, the main deciding factor is how seriously Gil takes the fight. He's always going to win if he takes it seriously enough, and the only thing his opponent can really do is to try to encourage him not to act seriously, and to finish him off quickly enough that he can't go "oh shit" and pull out Ea (like he tried to do with Shirou in UBW). Archer is pretty good at the first, I suspect, but I'm not so sure if he's capable of the second.

Quote
Arc versus Assassin (Extra)

Doesn't Arc win that easily, by virtue of her "I get my opponent's power plus a bit extra" thing?

lantzblades

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2014, 06:11:21 PM »
Shiki killed her dude. Power levels clearly mean nothing in the Nasuverse

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2014, 06:27:16 PM »
Shiki killed her dude. Power levels clearly mean nothing in the Nasuverse

Well, except that he didn't. He temporarily disabled her, and mostly because she wasn't expecting it at all.

Plus, your question (as far as I can tell) was "how would Arc win against Extra Assassin?", and I don't think much discussion is necessary for that. I would expect her to win unless something odd happened.

Brahmastra

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2014, 06:28:33 PM »
Gilgamesh doesn't possess everything, sorry. It has to a weapon possessed by humans or armour etcetera and even then the construction can bar Gilgamesh from getting it. This is a fact, see Avalon and Excalibur. So no, I'm not buying it.

Please do give your source on this. Please do, because you're full of shit. CCC confirms he has literally everything I listed, CCC is written by Nasu so your excuse of it not adhering to canon is completely useless.

That within are not merely riches, but his collection is the very "origins of human wisdom." That which is missing from the vault would be items produced with completely new concepts by a new human race, and items produced with extraterrestrial intelligence and technology. He is the original hero, so all heroes of various myths are derived from his legend. It may be a paradox, but he, as the original, must possess that which can be handed down as the Noble Phantasms possessed by those later heroes derived from him for that reason These weapons are technically nameless, the original Prototypes of the Noble Phantasms (すべての宝具の原型, Subete no Hōgu no Genkei?) and the common points before they became objects of faith that act as the foundations for their legends.

They are the original models of every legend, myth, and folklore.

The only part that could somehow result in your stupid fanon is that Gil cannot recognize certain things that happen to be Divine upon first sight (Excalibur, Avalon, Vasavi Shakti).

Gilgamesh makes references to wishing to obtain Excalibur and Kavacha&Kundala It is simply so that, such as with Vasavi Shakti, that he cannot tell if something corresponds to the treasures in his vault. Karna's legend records that he "has" the spear, but there is no description of it "being used." It does not exist in his eyes due to never having been described, so he wishes to obtain it.

Basically, he has the abilities of those Divine items in his vault, he just doesn't have the specific item. As in somewhere deep in Gil's vault there's another sword that's better at promising victory, a rock that can phase in and out of physical planes and another, different-looking spear that can kill Gods.





again not who would win but how, and, frankly you're being hypocritical Chris demanding we never use Gil again when your first suggestion was Satoshi versus Gilgamesh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

Blatant fucking bait.


as for the topic. It's clear that Archer is given at least a fighting chance by the rest of us and that Chris is the only blaring out Gilgamesh is super unbeatable so I think we should move on.

I'm aware how much you enjoy masturbatory Gil bashing, the problem is that you're stupider than a sack of rotten potatoes.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 06:32:38 PM by Christemo »

KAIZA

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2014, 06:41:48 PM »
OK, Chris, that's enough. I think it's better that you leave this thread, else I'll have to start handing warnings. Again.

Brahmastra

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2014, 06:48:31 PM »
Whatever. It's not like this doesn't happen with every lantz thread ever. I leave you with this.

http://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/10/26/entry-92-fear-and-leopard-print/

Gilgamesh: That Karna, such divine might even with two of his trump cards sealed. What an irritating man. It’s a shame about the problem with his Master. There’s no way that sack of meat can grant him his full power. Do you know, mongrel? That spear he has cannot be used by anyone, an article of rare beauty none have ever laid eyes upon. Which means that, though legend records that he “has” it, there is no description of it “being used.” Consequently, in my eyes that spear does not exist. As it is something that has never been described, I don’t know whether it corresponds to any of my treasures. A god-killing martial art, truth or falsehood — it will be most interesting to determine that going forward.

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2014, 07:14:43 PM »
Quote
Shiki killed her dude. Power levels clearly mean nothing in the Nasuverse

Do you even Tsukihime?

He had MEoDP. Li Shun Wen has just martial arts.

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2014, 07:33:04 PM »

Gilgamesh doesn't possess everything, sorry. It has to a weapon possessed by humans or armour etcetera and even then the construction can bar Gilgamesh from getting it. This is a fact, see Avalon and Excalibur. So no, I'm not buying it.

Quote from: food
As per CCC, Gilgamesh WOULD have the prototype of Excalibur and Avalon.

As long as said Noble Phantasm was held by a Hero, Gilgamesh already has it. Even if Gilgamesh shouldn't have it, it will be retroactively added, because all Heroes are derivatives of Gilgamesh.

The kick is whether Gilgamesh knew he has it. As Karna's battle showed, he does not have full knowledge of the content of the vault (won't know what the prototype is if historical records are scarce).
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lantzblades

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2014, 07:38:02 PM »
We've moved on Umbra, I don't care about AU Gilgamesh.

and Katsura, my point was power doesn't mean anything in the Nasuverse. And yes I'm one of the few people who actually read both novels 100% so I do Tsukihime. And the thing I call into question is how she got jumped. That said it's a discussion for another time.

Brahmastra

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2014, 07:41:18 PM »
We've moved on Umbra, I don't care about canon!Gilgamesh.

.