Author Topic: How would X win in a fight against Y  (Read 7742 times)

lantzblades

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How would X win in a fight against Y
« on: July 23, 2014, 03:24:21 AM »
Unlike who would win this thread is a debate on how a character would win against another. The point is to debate and prove your point.

for the first round.

Sakura versus Ciel

Dallas

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 03:26:50 AM »
uhh she wouldnt

Cherry Lover

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 03:35:48 AM »
Unlike who would win this thread is a debate on how a character would win against another. The point is to debate and prove your point.

for the first round.

Sakura versus Ciel

Sakura summons Rider, Rider kicks Ciel's ass :P

Assuming you mean without using sentient familiars (although I presume that, in that case, Ciel should not be allowed to use her sentient scripture gun thing either), then Sakura could beat Ciel by trapping her in her shadow dimension somehow. After all, regeneration doesn't do an awful lot of good if you're trapped. How exactly Sakura would manage to swallow her I'm not sure, though.

Brahmastra

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 03:40:42 AM »
Ciel murderfucks Sakura bloody, move on.

Satoshi vs Gil.

YOLF

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 03:46:47 AM »
No need to be rude about it, Chris. Also, you didn't state your argument.

Realistically, I'd say that Ciel wins against Sakura. Without Angra Mainyu she isn't particularly powerful and is not able to so easily do the many things she did as Dark Sakura, and against Ciel she has no particular advantage. Even without her scripture or her immortality, Ciel is a monster who is able to fight Servants defensively. One on one, in a realistic assessment, Ciel would definitely win.
[13:38:37] Helligator: Depends on the god, but gods by definition in Nasuverse are strong because they have divine authority.
[13:38:48] Kat: Even the toilet god?
[13:38:56] Helligator: No one worships toilets.
[13:39:00] Helligator: Don't be a shitlord.

[04:32:08] Helligator: I can't make dragons in power armor like this

[19:50:12] francobull III: [...] why are you being all assive aggressive?

[23:32:37] Helligator: use the narrative as a means to convey an interesting story and cool conflicts with the openness you're allowed
[23:32:43] Helligator: not to CHEAT stories and conflicts

Cherry Lover

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 03:50:57 AM »
Well, if summoning Rider is allowed, then Sakura wins. Otherwise, yeah, I think it's difficult to see how Sakura could beat her, but I think the general point of the thread was not to work out who would win, but to see if we could find a way that the underdog in the fight could actually pull off a shock victory. After all, no fight is a certainty.

Also, I think you're over-exaggerating the amount of effect that AM has on Sakura's magical ability, at least in the long term. I think that, with training, normal Sakura is capable of using most if not all of the magic that she uses in her dark form. The only major limit is her prana supply, which is lessened somewhat. And, as for Ciel's immortality, Sakura is one of the relatively few people for whom that is not actually a massive problem, because she is capable of swallowing people and imprisoning them in her shadow dimension, which doesn't kill Ciel and, thus, would not be affected by her immortality.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 03:53:04 AM by Cherry Lover »

Brahmastra

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 03:54:42 AM »
Well, if summoning Rider is allowed, then Sakura wins. Otherwise, yeah, I think it's difficult to see how Sakura could beat her, but I think the general point of the thread was not to work out who would win, but to see if we could find a way that the underdog in the fight could actually pull off a shock victory. After all, no fight is a certainty.

Also, I think you're over-exaggerating the amount of effect that AM has on Sakura's magical ability, at least in the long term. I think that, with training, normal Sakura is capable of using most if not all of the magic that she uses in her dark form. The only major limit is her prana supply, which is lessened somewhat. And, as for Ciel's immortality, Sakura is one of the relatively few people for whom that is not actually a massive problem, because she is capable of swallowing people and imprisoning them in her shadow dimension.

1. It's not "Sakura and Rider vs Ciel", it's Sakura vs Ciel.

2. Ciel can literally oneshot Sakura using Black Keys and the Iron Plate Effect.

3. Sakura is weakshit without AM, since it gives her figuratively infinite mana.

4. For Sakura to trap Ciel is pretty much impossible given that Ciel can shove Black Keys or Seventh through Sakura's face faster than you can say "Can fight Servants".

YOLF

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2014, 03:55:26 AM »
The point is to debate about who we think wins and prove our points. If you want to do it to give the underdog a chance at victory that's fine, but you have to look at things from an unbiased standpoint if you want to make fair and acceptable judgements on these things.

I didn't say she wasn't able to do those things. I only said she could "not so easily" do the same things as when she went Dark, and for justifiable reasons like Angra Mainyu's influence, the constant supply from the Grail, etc etc.

I did not see you present any point that counters my arguments well enough to make a Sakura victory believable, so I'll stick with Ciel winning as the very likely outcome.

Also Chris seriously, you don't need to word things in a way you know will upset people.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 03:56:52 AM by YOLF »
[13:38:37] Helligator: Depends on the god, but gods by definition in Nasuverse are strong because they have divine authority.
[13:38:48] Kat: Even the toilet god?
[13:38:56] Helligator: No one worships toilets.
[13:39:00] Helligator: Don't be a shitlord.

[04:32:08] Helligator: I can't make dragons in power armor like this

[19:50:12] francobull III: [...] why are you being all assive aggressive?

[23:32:37] Helligator: use the narrative as a means to convey an interesting story and cool conflicts with the openness you're allowed
[23:32:43] Helligator: not to CHEAT stories and conflicts

lantzblades

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 03:59:18 AM »
Things to say

1) actually I never said they were restricted to their own strength. If you can summon a dude then it counts.

2) be polite guys

3) discussing something new at this point is premature

4) win includes captures, tkos and the like.

Cherry Lover

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 04:05:20 AM »
The point is to debate about who we think wins and prove our points. If you want to do it to give the underdog a chance at victory that's fine, but you have to look at things from an unbiased standpoint if you want to make fair and acceptable judgements on these things.

I didn't say she wasn't able to do those things. I only said she could "not so easily" do the same things as when she went Dark, and for justifiable reasons like Angra Mainyu's influence, the constant supply from the Grail, etc etc.

I did not see you present any point that counters my arguments well enough to make a Sakura victory believable, so I'll stick with Ciel winning as the very likely outcome.

Also Chris seriously, you don't need to word things in a way you know will upset people.

I fully agree that, without Rider assisting, Sakura is highly unlikely to defeat Ciel. However, Lantz's first post does make it pretty clear that the idea of the thread was not to debate who would win but, rather, to come up with a plausible theory for how the first character could defeat the second (in this case, how Sakura could defeat Ciel).

I see no point in having a debate about who would win because, yes, it is pretty obvious that Ciel is a massive favourite in any such fight. However, I do think it is still an interesting exercise to consider ways in which Sakura could pull off an upset victory. Unlikely is not the same as impossible.

Things to say

1) actually I never said they were restricted to their own strength. If you can summon a dude then it counts.

Then Sakura wins pretty easily. She summons Rider, who kicks Ciel's ass for her. Sakura provides backup and, when Ciel is incapacitated by virtue of having been repeatedly perforated with nails, Sakura swallows her with her shadows. The only requirement here is that Sakura be trained enough to be able to use her shadow magic decently.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 04:08:33 AM by Cherry Lover »

YOLF

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2014, 04:12:37 AM »
Personally I'd wager Ciel could mortally wound Sakura with a Black Key before she called Rider, if they started in the same conditions and aware of each other, but if Sakura got Rider out I'd bet on Ciel losing.
[13:38:37] Helligator: Depends on the god, but gods by definition in Nasuverse are strong because they have divine authority.
[13:38:48] Kat: Even the toilet god?
[13:38:56] Helligator: No one worships toilets.
[13:39:00] Helligator: Don't be a shitlord.

[04:32:08] Helligator: I can't make dragons in power armor like this

[19:50:12] francobull III: [...] why are you being all assive aggressive?

[23:32:37] Helligator: use the narrative as a means to convey an interesting story and cool conflicts with the openness you're allowed
[23:32:43] Helligator: not to CHEAT stories and conflicts

Elf

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2014, 04:14:21 AM »
Honestly, I have to put the win on Ciel.

Even if Sakura was trained to the level of Rin, Ciel is a member of the Burial Agency.  She hunts Dead Apostles.  Alone. 

She can fight defensively against Arcuied, who is four times a "normal" Servant's power.  If we're comparing power, the two might be equal.  However, Ciel has something Sakura doesn't: experience.    Ciel has fought a lot.  Sakura hasn't.  This is a case where Sakura's lack of experience is going to cost her the win.

Not to mention, Sakura's weak to sempais.

lantzblades

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2014, 04:17:22 AM »
It is indeed how, not who. I'm not looking for better, just how they could win.

if you both see your conclusion as definitive then we should move on. As for Chris' suggestion. Frankly I think it's best to avoid the topic, for the moment it's not debatable because I know everything about one party and the rest of you know virtually nothing.

Cherry Lover

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2014, 04:20:03 AM »
Personally I'd wager Ciel could mortally wound Sakura with a Black Key before she called Rider, if they started in the same conditions and aware of each other, but if Sakura got Rider out I'd bet on Ciel losing.

Well, it would depend somewhat on the circumstances of the fight, yes, as well as on how easily Sakura could summon Rider. If she has command spells then I am not convinced Ciel could do that at all, not unless she launched a surprise attack (and, if she did and was not aware of Rider's existence, she would probably use the Black Keys to pin Sakura in place initially, giving her the time to summon Rider before Ciel finished her off), if not then it would be harder for Sakura. I think she would need to be very well-trained to take on Ciel on her own for any length of time.

Honestly, I have to put the win on Ciel.

Even if Sakura was trained to the level of Rin, Ciel is a member of the Burial Agency.  She hunts Dead Apostles.  Alone. 

She can fight defensively against Arcuied, who is four times a "normal" Servant's power.  If we're comparing power, the two might be equal.  However, Ciel has something Sakura doesn't: experience.    Ciel has fought a lot.  Sakura hasn't.  This is a case where Sakura's lack of experience is going to cost her the win.

Without Rider, Sakura is at a massive advantage, yes. With Rider available to Sakura, however, I think a reasonably-trained Sakura could survive long enough for Rider to get there and protect her, and if Rider shows up I think Ciel is in big trouble.

Quote
Not to mention, Sakura's weak to sempais.

Lol.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 04:20:55 AM by Cherry Lover »

lantzblades

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Re: How would X win in a fight against Y
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2014, 04:36:41 AM »
Well alright. Archer versus Gilgamesh