Author Topic: Fate/Stay Night [Realta Nua] PC version Mirror Moon TL insertion project  (Read 11923 times)

Kat

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Mike, worms are not genuine rape, you know.

I3uster

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Nice to see this went over so well from the start :/

Don't complain about getting mangled by the lion when you walk into his den wearing a suit of meat lathered in BBQ sauce.

Kat

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Jack is kinda blamed for every perceived flaw in the latest patch :p.

Cherry Lover

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Mike, worms are not genuine rape, you know.

I really don't think it matters, the effect on her is the same. Plus, what Shinji does to her is simply never mentioned, there's no real reason to assume he hasn't raped her before.

Jacktheinfinite101

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In what sense does it give her "more dignity". It's still fucking obvious she is being raped, Zero outright states as much.

Realta Nua is more canon than Zero.

No, it's not. Plus, RN doesn't say "Sakura was not raped", it merely carefully avoids saying she was.


That's what RN does too.  I've loled out some bad censorship, but the way they treat Sakura's abuse, save for Shinji, is the same way Zero does.  Compared to their violence censorship or their lazy coverups to H scene references it's actually not nearly as bad.

Kat

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If there is no mention of Shinji rape in RN, there is no Shinji rape in RN. Otherwise, it's assuming things.

Jacktheinfinite101

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If there is no mention of Shinji rape in RN, there is no Shinji rape in RN. Otherwise, it's assuming things.

I'm not talking about Shinji rape, I'm talking about the worm rape.

Cherry Lover

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In what sense does it give her "more dignity". It's still fucking obvious she is being raped, Zero outright states as much.

Realta Nua is more canon than Zero.

No, it's not. Plus, RN doesn't say "Sakura was not raped", it merely carefully avoids saying she was.


That's what RN does too.  I've loled out some bad censorship, but the way they treat Sakura's abuse, save for Shinji, is the same way Zero does.  Compared to their violence censorship or their lazy coverups to H scene references it's actually not nearly as bad.

Well, just carefully avoiding any mention of rape is not so bad, although it's just a bit silly and makes the story less clear. But, the stuff with Shinji is just terrible, and the censorship is general is just lazy. Aside from wanting a laugh or curiosity, I genuinely cannot see why anyone would want to read the full RN version.

If there is no mention of Shinji rape in RN, there is no Shinji rape in RN. Otherwise, it's assuming things.

That only makes sense if you assume RN is a significant AU from the original FSN, though. If you assume the two have the same backstory (which seems sensible given that Sakura turns out the same way), then the rape obviously happens in both.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 06:28:04 PM by Cherry Lover »

Alice

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People, what did I say about playing nice? This is enough of a mess to clean up without the additional garbage. Behave now, or I'm going to start handing out warnings.

Besides running the forum, I can provide avatars for people as well~
This is my mod voice. ...Most of the time anyway.

Cherry Lover

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Hmm, OK, so it seems like I was getting confused again. With the H-scenes disabled, Jack's version also uses the RN version of all of the sexual scenes, so the stupid "Shinji beats up Sakura and she reacts for some reason in total contradiction to how she has behaved for the previous two years" thing is in there. If you want a sensible, well-written version of HF that makes sense, you need to enable the H-scenes. Just a warning for anyone new who is thinking of trying it, if you turn the H-scenes off you also ruin the story with lazy censorship of anything involving sex.

By the way, to explain, my issue with the Shinji death scene censorship is this. Sakura doesn't kill Shinji to protect herself, her mindset is too broken for that. She kills Shinji because he threatens to tell Shirou he's been raping her, and she realises that Shirou's reaction will likely be to kill Shinji. That works because being raped can (unfortunately) have negative connotations for the victim, and Sakura's mindset is such that she actually sees it as "her fault" in some way (that is shown multiple times previously in the route). Conversely, "Shinji has been beating me up for 4 years" does not have the same negative connotations, and thus Shinji threatening to tell Shirou that makes him just come across as suicidal, as opposed to a misogynistic idiot who doesn't appreciate that even Shirou's willingness to look for the good side in people has limits. So, there is no in-character reason why she would actually fight back, particularly since she went to the Matou house with the expectation of dying.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 07:43:56 PM by Cherry Lover »

Koto

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Mike, if you'd actually played it you'd know that Shinji threatening to "tell Shirou" doesn't even happen in the RN version (either in that scene or the earlier ones). You're criticizing something you haven't actually looked at (I remember you making this same criticism of this scene before either of us even had access to RN).

Personally I think the RN version of HF is a lot less awkward/tasteless so I'd recommend the non-H version! but what do I know, people have different tastes
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:37:19 PM by Koto »

Jacktheinfinite101

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Mike, if you'd actually played it you'd know that Shinji threatening to "tell Shirou" doesn't even happen in the RN version (either in that scene or the earlier ones). You're criticizing something you haven't actually looked at (I remember you making this same criticism of this scene before either of us even had access to RN).

Personally I think the RN version of HF is a lot less awkward/tasteless so I'd recommend the non-H version! but what do I know, people have different tastes

This is why I decided I should provide access to both versions in my patch.  Personally I'm not too big a fan of how either one is handled but I think the original is legions better than the RN version, but like you said, different tastes.  I recommend that people read both versions and decide for themselves.

Koto

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Spoiler for Hidden:
Also looking at both versions, I'd disagree with Mike's assessment of Sakura's motivations in that scene. She wasn't thinking "well I have to kill my brother or Senpai will kill him and get sad". What happened was she gave up resisting and started thinking about how nobody would let her have her happiness and how she cursed the world for "hating her so much", and she finally just thinks "fuck it, I wish he wasn't here". THEN the shadow kicks in. This is the same in both versions.

So really she had no concrete motive in either version, it was just her going "this sucks, FML" and her shadow taking over from there. You can't even really call it intentional.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 03:18:54 PM by Koto »

Cherry Lover

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Mike, if you'd actually played it you'd know that Shinji threatening to "tell Shirou" doesn't even happen in the RN version (either in that scene or the earlier ones). You're criticizing something you haven't actually looked at (I remember you making this same criticism of this scene before either of us even had access to RN).

Sure, but that still doesn't make sense. Sakura kills Shinji in the original to protect Shirou, whereas in that version she has no such reason, and self-defence is not a reason she's ever invoked before (despite plenty of opportunity). Plus, Jack showed me some of it before, and it is legitimately just really lazy and badly-written. Even if the concept could maybe have worked, they quite clearly didn't give a fuck.

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Personally I think the RN version of HF is a lot less awkward/tasteless so I'd recommend the non-H version! but what do I know, people have different tastes

I think it doesn't fit with Sakura's characterisation, honestly.

Spoiler for Hidden:
Also looking at both versions, I'd disagree with Mike's assessment of Sakura's motivations in that scene. She wasn't thinking "well I have to kill my brother or Senpai will kill him and get sad". What happened was she gave up resisting and started thinking about how nobody would let her have her happiness and how she cursed the world for "hating her so much", and she finally just thinks "fuck it, I wish he wasn't here". THEN the shadow kicks in. This is the same in both versions.

So really she had no concrete motive in either version, it was just her going "this sucks, FML" and her shadow taking over from there. You can't even really call it intentional.

In the original, she thinks "I wish he wasn't here" because she knows he'll tell Shirou, and Shirou will end up breaking even more as a result. It's much more Shirou-centric.

Mike, if you'd actually played it you'd know that Shinji threatening to "tell Shirou" doesn't even happen in the RN version (either in that scene or the earlier ones). You're criticizing something you haven't actually looked at (I remember you making this same criticism of this scene before either of us even had access to RN).

Personally I think the RN version of HF is a lot less awkward/tasteless so I'd recommend the non-H version! but what do I know, people have different tastes

This is why I decided I should provide access to both versions in my patch.  Personally I'm not too big a fan of how either one is handled but I think the original is legions better than the RN version, but like you said, different tastes.  I recommend that people read both versions and decide for themselves.

I just feel that, if you're going to remove the dumb censorship, you should just remove all of the dumb censorship, rather than arbitrarily removing half and keeping the other half. Honestly, I'd rather have just had a straight choice between your version and Koto's one (without having to piss around swapping around patch files), rather than some bastardised halfway house that includes all the important censorship anyway. If I'm going to read the censored version, I might as well read a version that has all of the censorship.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 04:19:55 PM by Cherry Lover »

Koto

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In the original, she thinks "I wish he wasn't here" because she knows he'll tell Shirou, and Shirou will end up breaking even more as a result. It's much more Shirou-centric.
See, I don't think that's the reason though. "Oh no, Senpai!" was the reason she was actively struggling at first, but the trigger for the shadow was rather the darker "nobody ever lets me be happy, I hate the whole world" thought train that came after she gave up.